Amplification for 30-100 people

[Wyllys]

The Schertler looks interesting, but (like Bose) they don't give any meaningful specs. However, they do state that they're running a 400W amp module in it, so if we assume a range of speaker sensitivity from 92 (low ) to 100 (high) the probable peak output SPL would be somewhere between 118 dB 1W/1M and 128 dB 1W/1M.

This would indicate a significantly higher output than the Bose sticks, half again to possibly twice as loud.

[swburton]

Originally Posted by Wyllys

The Schertler looks interesting, but (like Bose) they don't give any meaningful specs. However, they do state that they're running a 400W amp module in it, so if we assume a range of speaker sensitivity from 92 (low ) to 100 (high) the probable peak output SPL would be somewhere between 118 dB 1W/1M and 128 dB 1W/1M.

This would indicate a significantly higher output than the Bose sticks, half again to possibly twice as loud.

Actually, the PDF of the specs (whilst hard to read), does specify that the Jam 400 gives a max SPL of 123db.

For Bose, see here: http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=276082
The L1 Compact is 112bD max.

[Wyllys]

Originally Posted by swburton

Actually, the PDF of the specs (whilst hard to read), does specify that the Jam 400 gives a max SPL of 123db.

For Bose, see here: http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=276082
The L1 Compact is 112bD max.

So pretty much in the middle of the low/high calculation and twice the output of the Bose.

Solid.

[swburton]

Originally Posted by Wyllys

So pretty much in the middle of the low/high calculation and twice the output of the Bose.

Solid.

I don't follow as I'm just beginning on all this! Can you explain?

[swburton]

I guess the one big negative of the Jam 400 is that the controls are on the top, which either means that:

(a) it has to be lower down so that the control are easily accessed - but this limits the projection of the sound to the back

or

(b) if it is raised sufficiently high, then the control are harder to get to.

Thoughts?

Is 4 foot enough off the ground to project to the back of a small hall/room with 60-100 people in it?

[RedJoker]

Originally Posted by swburton

What is the 12" Samson Auro that he got? The X12D? The D12? The D208A? I see the X12D gives 125dB SPL @ 1m.

What mixer does he use?

I'm pretty sure they are Samson D412 speakers and the mixer is a Yamaha MG10 something or other. I know those are the best components, just that they sounded good for what we were doing. I think he paid something like $250 / speaker a few years ago and $150 for the mixer. Like I said, if you can test anything out at all, that's your best bet.

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by swburton

I guess the one big negative of the Jam 400 is that the controls are on the top, which either means that:

(a) it has to be lower down so that the control are easily accessed - but this limits the projection of the sound to the back

or

(b) if it is raised sufficiently high, then the control are harder to get to.

Thoughts?

Is 4 foot enough off the ground to project to the back of a small hall/room with 60-100 people in it?

The Jam 400 is a very nice amp, and up on a stand at 6 feet high or so will certainly cover you, but I really do think that the placement of the controls is a problem unless you plan to use a small mixer down near you to control the thing--and if you're going to do that, you might consider spending your money on a solid 10" or 12" PA speaker and a good small mixer.

Just as an example, a Yamaha DBR 10 will give you 129 db and 90 degree horizontal sound coverage. It's lighter and smaller and therefore easier to carry and get up on a pole stand, and a small mixer like an Allen and Heath ZED10FX will give you all the mixing options and effects you need, and it can be placed on a small stand or a chair next to you on stage for easy control. Other powered speaker options right be, depending on your budget and UK prices, the Yamaha DBR 12, the DXR 8, 10, or 12, the RCF 310a or 312a. And there are others.

Just something to consider. And for what it's worth, I've been using a ZED10FX and a single RCF 310a in contexts like the ones you describe for several years now very, very happily.

Louis

[swburton]

Originally Posted by lschwart

The Jam 400 is a very nice amp, and up on a stand at 6 feet high or so will certainly cover you, but I really do think that the placement of the controls is a problem unless you plan to use a small mixer down near you to control the thing--and if you're going to do that, you might consider spending your money on a solid 10" or 12" PA speaker and a good small mixer.

Just as an example, a Yamaha DBR 10 will give you 129 db and 90 degree horizontal sound coverage. It's lighter and smaller and therefore easier to carry and get up on a pole stand, and a small mixer like an Allen and Heath ZED10FX will give you all the mixing options and effects you need, and it can be placed on a small stand or a chair next to you on stage for easy control. Other powered speaker options right be, depending on your budget and UK prices, the Yamaha DBR 12, the DXR 8, 10, or 12, the RCF 310a or 312a. And there are others.

Just something to consider. And for what it's worth, I've been using a ZED10FX and a single RCF 310a in contexts like the ones you describe for several years now very, very happily.

Louis

Yeah, it is worth considering. Do you find the sound to be warm enough? For example, Rockabilly69 mentioned the issues with the Bose not sounding as good as the Jam 400. How do the speakers you mention sound to you?

[akafloyd]

Originally Posted by swburton

Hi,

I'm looking to get my first amp for use with my acoustic guitar and some mp3 pads from iPad. It is also likely that I would put vocals through it (maybe with Play Acoustic) and maybe in time include a BeatBuddy pedal system.

The settings where it would be used are mainly small groups 20-40 people, but there is potential that I might need amplification in settings of around 80-100 people. In both settings, the crowd will be singing too.

Originally I had been thinking of Loudbox Mini but then thought Loudbox Artist would give easier control of the mp3 pads as it has a dial for the AUX. But unsure if even the Artist could adequately handle all this. Would it work in the small setting but struggle with the larger crowd?

At what stage do I need to consider a fuller sound system rather than just a solo amp? Should I just jump straight to the fuller system? I guess the solo amp seemed more portable but if it's going to sound rubbish with guitar, vocals, pads, BeatBuddy through it, then maybe it is better to sacrifice some portability...but it still needs to be portable so that it can be moved venues.

Thanks in advance.

You're getting a lot of great information in this thread! The Loudbox Mini would easily be loud enough for 100 people to hear you, if you need more power/coverage add a powered speaker or two. Are there better systems? Of course. I think you need to nail down how many channels you need, that will be the limiting factor on most combo amp units which commonly have an input for a mic, another for a guitar, and maybe an aux input.

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by swburton

Yeah, it is worth considering. Do you find the sound to be warm enough? For example, Rockabilly69 mentioned the issues with the Bose not sounding as good as the Jam 400. How do the speakers you mention sound to you?

"Warmth" is a very subjective term and assuming a reasonably well designed amplification system of appropriate scale, it's going to be much more a matter of your sound sources and your EQ and effects than it's going to be about some inherent warmth in your speaker or combo amp. I have no trouble getting a natural sounding acoustic guitar and vocal sound out of my RCF/ZED system. I can make it a little warmer or a little brighter as I wish using the EQ on the ZED or on the preamp/DI unit I also use for the guitar. Different vocal mics also have their own character. I use a Heil PR30, which just sounds nice on my voice.

It's worth remembering also that a combo amp and a "stick" system like the Bose are going to sound different and they're going to distribute sound differently in a space (and differently in one space than in another). Those are much more consequential differences, and there's no way to tell if your playing and singing with your instruments, pickups, and mics are going to sound "warmer" through the Jam 400 than through the Bose until you try them (and those might not even be the terms in which you hear the differences and prefer one to the other).

I do use a combo amp in some contexts from time to time, and the amp I have (a Genz Benz ProLT) does have a distinctively "warm" sound of its own. It colors what you put into it in a distinctive way, although that can be altered using some of it's controls depending on what you like. For contexts like the one you describe, I don't use the amp because while it's relatively light at 37 lbs and plenty loud, it's rather large and bulky and can't be mounted on a pole. The RCF310a is smaller, lighter, and much, much better at distributing sound around a room.

Louis

[xtremekustomz]

Originally Posted by Wyllys

Another clarification:

"400W" is the nominal power handling spec for the speaker. Speaker OUTPUT is measured in dB SPL. Speaker efficiency also comes into play. A 100W speaker and a 500W speaker can have identical OUTPUT ratings, but the second one can handle more power. A speaker with higher sensitivity requires less input to drive it to max rated SPL ( output).

Again, it is important to understand what the terms mean and to what they actually refer.

But none of this tells you how it sounds or how easy it is to tote and set up...

I understand how all of it works. I have a degree in electronics and was in the car audio industry for 15 years. My Schertler Jam 400 has a 400 watt amplifier not 400 watt speakers, big difference.

As for the way it sounds...I tried out the bose systems, fishman 220, artist, performer, and loudbox mini and none compared to the quality of sound and volume the Schertler has. It weighs 46 lbs so it isn't the lightest but it is solid. One way to produce great sound is have high quality electronics, drivers and a solid enclosure. If an enclosure flexes the system loses tone and volume. From what I can tell it looks like the enclosure is made of 10 ply baltic birch. Baltic birch is one of those woods that actually adds warmth to the sound. I've built many enclosures out of mdf and baltic birch just has a warmer sound just as guitars with different woods sound different.

[xtremekustomz]

Originally Posted by swburton

I don't follow as I'm just beginning on all this! Can you explain?

Maybe this won't confuse the crap out of you but to save some typing check this out:

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/Class/sound/u11l2b.cfm

Also I got my flush mount up off of ebay I believe. I wanted a metal instead of a plastic. Lots of music stores sell them though. If you do go this route make sure the cup size is the same as the stand.

Back in the day I built car audio competition systems. Some of those were in the 160 db range and at around 30 hz. Fortunately I haven't really lost that much of my hearing as I have tests done every year. A couple of -5's in the 4000-6000 hz range. Protect your hearing! On a loud stage you should be wearing some kind of hearing protection or even a noise cancelling that only allows a certain level of volume to come through before it is cancelled out.

[swburton]

Originally Posted by xtremekustomz

I tried out the bose systems, fishman 220, artist, performer, and loudbox mini and none compared to the quality of sound and volume the Schertler has. It weighs 46 lbs so it isn't the lightest but it is solid. One way to produce great sound is have high quality electronics, drivers and a solid enclosure. If an enclosure flexes the system loses tone and volume. From what I can tell it looks like the enclosure is made of 10 ply baltic birch. Baltic birch is one of those woods that actually adds warmth to the sound. I've built many enclosures out of mdf and baltic birch just has a warmer sound just as guitars with different woods sound different.

How do you adjust levels when it is 6' in the air? Are you really tall? Do you use another mix? Do you move it up and down?

[swburton]

Originally Posted by lschwart

The RCF310a is smaller, lighter, and much, much better at distributing sound around a room.

If you had to choose between RCF312As and Yamaha DBR 10s? They are about the same price here on a website I checked. Not sold on anything yet, still just exploring options.

[xtremekustomz]

Originally Posted by swburton

How do you adjust levels when it is 6' in the air? Are you really tall? Do you use another mix? Do you move it up and down?

I've never really used it that high but I do use a Soundcraft Ui12 wireless mixer and an ipad to adjust volumes. The mixer was only $300 and it has effects, parametric eq, compressor and many other features. The wireless router in it isn't the greatest but I can just connect an external for perfect connection.