advice on ways to learn

[HOF dad]

Hi all - been reading here for about 6 months now and it's quickly become my favorite sight to hang out on - so much great stuff here!

I was reading the song list thread the other day and was taken by a selection from dkstott:

"But this one has captured me for a bit. I got the arrangement from a new magazine Fingerstyle Guitar Journal.

Roger Hudson - Scarborough Jazz Fair

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaQJYKK3Sis"

I viewed the video (as well as a couple of others from Roger Hudson - amazing)

My question is how would you go about attempting to learn this song?
I don't read sheet music and can stumble through tabs but learn most songs from tutorials on youtube. This may be beyond my abilities but I've been making tremendous strides since I retired last May with all my free time. For example, I'm working on "Angelina" and have it halfway in my head. It may take me a whole year to get it playable at a basic level, but it's getting there and I love the process.
Anyway, back to the question.........any suggestions? What type of arrangement did you get from the journal?

Appreciate any help and again - love the stuff on this site!

Dan

[tbeltrans]

There will hopefully be many responses in this thread, so this is just one person's thoughts.

When first learning fingerstyle, I used a book by Happy Traum. I worked with the notation and I think it may have had TAB too. Anyway, I would play each vertical slice of music, vertical slice by vertical slice. What I mean by "vertical slice" is everything that occurred in one moment in time - the notes stacked vertically. It may be just a melody note or a melody and a bass note, or a couple of notes in between.

At first, I was not worried about playing in time. I just wanted my fingers to learn the feel of what they were supposed to be doing VERY slowly. I would learn one vertical slice and then the next. Then I would go from the first one to the next one slowly. Then I would learn the next vertical slice and go from the previous one to that one until that was comfortable, and then play through from the beginning up to that one, adding a new vertical slice, one at a time in the same manner.

It was very slow process, but I learned to Travis pick that way, and learned a bunch of fingerpicking tunes that same way. Gradually, my fingers developed muscle memory and the learning process got faster. The tunes I was learning then were much simpler than what you are talking about here.

Here are some other thoughts...

This is a fairly sophisticated arrangement with interesting harmony and rhythm. I can suggest that you can learn it by getting the software Transcribe!, which is capable of slowing down a video while remaining sync'ed with the audio, and setting loop points so you are working with a very small section of the tune at a time. You would download the video and work with it locally on your computer. There are also online sites that allow you to slow down Youtube videos that I have seen some folks mention here, but I am not familiar with those.

That said, you have to have enough technique and the ability to really hear these harmonies so you can figure it all out by ear. So you could try learnig the tune this way, but don't get discouraged if you find it quite difficult. Anybody would, though depending on your experience, not everyone could muscle through it.

If you have seen any of Sungha Jung's videos on Youtube, he has repeatedly said that he learned mostly from Youtube videos.

You should be able to purchase the issue of Fingerstyle Magazine to get the sheet music/TAB, since the new version of the magazine is in PDF format. Back issues are $6.00 - a pittance if you really want to learn the tune.

However, even with the sheet music, you still need the technique to play something like this. However, you can take it very slowly and get it with persistence. In the process, you will develop the technique.

www.fingerstylejournal.com/

Also check Roger Hudson's site:

rogerhudson.com/home

He says in his comments that the sheet music will be available at his store at some point.


Tony

[HOF dad]

Thanks for the feed back Tony. You really hit on the core of my question. I can finger pick moderately well (certainly not to the skill level in the video) but I was stumped on how to even approach this piece because of the "complexity of it" as you so aptly stated.
My ear is not too bad but there's so much going on in this song that I'm not sure I could just listen and figure it out. There's one way to find out though and I might see how much I can get.
Great ideas on the software and back issues of the magazine. I'll check them both out. They might no only help with this song but open up tons of others to consider too.
That's why I love this community. You guys have great insight.

[tbeltrans]

With the Transcribe! software, since it also plays the video, you can slow it way down and loop a very small segment over and over, and even stop so you can really see what the player's fingers are doing. You could do this with just the downloaded video or with the sheet music, if you decide to get that.

Short of a live person sitting with you, showing finger by finger, note by note how to play the tune, it really doesn't get any better than this.

However, even with all this help, if you are not at a level to tackle the piece, it could be an exercise in frustration. If that is the case, I would try to figure what you may be lacking in skills to be able to tackle this piece, and determine what learning materials you might need to work through to get to this level. This is one place a live teacher could really help you - determining what you need to know to play a piece such as this, and then what to do about it. The trick, then, would be finding a GOOD teacher that you can understand and work with.

Tony

[HOF dad]

That sounds like a terrific tool. In the process of learning Angelina (still in progress), I used one Youtube video lesson that was exactly like that - it was a very slow version of the song. It helps me find all the notes in the song, a few that I had missed.

I just looked at Transcribe! on line. Do you have or have you used this? They advertise a free download and one that costs $. Usually the free stuff is not worth the effort.

thanks again for your help

[rick-slo]

A piece with lots of variations to memorize. Fortunately you have the tab and a video to watch (hopefully the two match fairly well). Just learn from first measure to last, A to Z. The hardest part will be the memorizing. There are no special secrets though get better at using tab and using timing info in music scores that may come with the tab. It is a commitment. I have to really like something to put in the investment to first learn it and then keep it in the repertoire.

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by HOF dad

That sounds like a terrific tool. In the process of learning Angelina (still in progress), I used one Youtube video lesson that was exactly like that - it was a very slow version of the song. It helps me find all the notes in the song, a few that I had missed.

I just looked at Transcribe! on line. Do you have or have you used this? They advertise a free download and one that costs $. Usually the free stuff is not worth the effort.

thanks again for your help

Yes, I have this software, and so do most players I know. It has become pretty much the standard for this type of software, especially since it is available for Windows, Linux, and Mac.

As I recall, the free download is te trial version that does everything, but for just a couple of weeks. Then, you buy the software and get a key to unlock it so you can continue to use it. I have had it for years, so I have always had my key.

Another piece of software that can be useful is tabledit because there is a lot of material available online in tabledit (tef) format. Guitar Pro is also quite popular. These are not for what you are asking here, but I thought I would mention them as future reference for you to look into at some point. The current tabledit can read Guitar Pro files (at least older version of Guitar Pro files), and I suspect that Guitar Pro might be able to read tef files, though I am not sure of that.

I prefer tabledit because it is small and light and full featured, where Guitar Pro is certainly full featured, but seems to have a lot more stuff in it that akes a lot of disk space. Also, at least on my computers with high resolution display, the text and controls for Guitar Pro are really small and hard to see. However, a lot of people really love Guitar Pro, so it is a matter of what you like to work with.

Tony

[HOF dad]

great stuff - I'm going to look into all of them.
can't thank you enough!

[Toby Walker]

Hi Hof,

All of the ways mentioned are worth it. I'd like to add one other thing:

We all strive to practice each and every day, but let's be realistic, there are some days where we don't seem to have time. So here's how you can still be effective even if you're squeezed on the clock.

Take that one, toughest section of the piece that gives you the most trouble and just practice that for 10 minutes. I'm sure you can find 10 minutes in that harried day.

As long as you can get in 5 or 6 of the other days of the week in, you'll find that one 'short' day of concentrated practice will yield VAST improvements.

I tell my students this and trust me, it really works.

Have fun!

[TBman]

Guitarpro is my "go to" tool.

How you practice something while learning it is important too.

One of the things I like to do is play a piece really slow, even the ones I have been playing for a while. Its like a reality check kind of thing, to listen to every note, see if you have the right sustain to certain notes... I get into the mindset that I have to learn this or that in a certain amount of time and finally I said the heck with that, just play and enjoy. The tempo pickup to performance speed comes by itself (with some speed bursts helping once in a while, lol)

[HOF dad]

Thanks guys.

Toby, one of the blessings I now have is that I retired 11 months ago so time is MUCH less of an issue than it's ever been. Your advice rings true, though, because there are days that i kind of just want to play what I already know and enjoy the songs. I try to make myself put in time on something that I'm working on and it shows when I do. You've put that thought in my head now every time I play (which is a good thing)

TBman - what you say is true. For what ever reason, I always seem to play faster than I should when I'm learning.I know to play slow when learning but I sometimes really need to force myself to do that. I think because I hear the song in my head, my fingers migrate to that speed.

All these tips from you guys helps me to be more confident in my approach to next level songs. That's half the battle right there. The rest is play, play, play and I like that.

thanks again for weighing in!

[Toby Walker]

Oh, and by the way.... welcome to the AGF!

[Pitar]

I learn the basic progression as the meat, followed by the notes of each chord in the progression as the potatoes. That might sound overly simplistic but that's all it is, and all it will ever be for any piece. Learn the progression all the way through then begin the finger work. Once you know and can follow blindly along the path your sense of picking will come into play with focus. Until then you're looking at too many things demanding equal time.

[dkstott]

HI, thought I'd chime in since I was mentioned... LOL

Roger Hudson is amazing!!

FWIW-- There are 2-3 books of Roger's earlier arrangements available from Mel Bay. I highly recommend his "Guitar Peace" & "Delta" books of arrangements.

I'm a subscriber to Fingerstyle Guitar Journal, so I have the actual sheet music. You can purchase individual issues.. The arrangement for the song is in Issue #4

http://www.fingerstylejournal.com/

Roger posted the video before the magazine came out & peaked my interest. So my initial step was to figure out what key Roger chose to play this song in.
(BTW he plays it in the key of G)

Using my metronome, I figured out that Roger seems to play the majority of the song in 3/4 time with occasional 6/8 timing phrases.

My next step was to determine the chords in the basic Scarborough Fair song in the key of G and developed a rudimentary fingerstyle arrangement of my own.

Then, I received the magazine and started reviewing the arrangement to what "jazz" chords Roger chose to add.

The magazine came out in July 2016 & my effort to play this arrangement is still very much a "work in progress"

Fortunately, there are many more arrangements by Roger that I have been able to play in the meantime.

Hope this helps, feel free to PM me with questions

Dave

Originally Posted by HOF dad

Hi all - been reading here for about 6 months now and it's quickly become my favorite sight to hang out on - so much great stuff here!

I was reading the song list thread the other day and was taken by a selection from dkstott:

"But this one has captured me for a bit. I got the arrangement from a new magazine Fingerstyle Guitar Journal.

Roger Hudson - Scarborough Jazz Fair

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaQJYKK3Sis"

I viewed the video (as well as a couple of others from Roger Hudson - amazing)

My question is how would you go about attempting to learn this song?
I don't read sheet music and can stumble through tabs but learn most songs from tutorials on youtube. This may be beyond my abilities but I've been making tremendous strides since I retired last May with all my free time. For example, I'm working on "Angelina" and have it halfway in my head. It may take me a whole year to get it playable at a basic level, but it's getting there and I love the process.
Anyway, back to the question.........any suggestions? What type of arrangement did you get from the journal?

Appreciate any help and again - love the stuff on this site!

Dan

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by HOF dad

That sounds like a terrific tool. In the process of learning Angelina (still in progress), I used one Youtube video lesson that was exactly like that - it was a very slow version of the song. It helps me find all the notes in the song, a few that I had missed.

I just looked at Transcribe! on line. Do you have or have you used this? They advertise a free download and one that costs $. Usually the free stuff is not worth the effort.

thanks again for your help

As Tony says, Transcribe is free - for the first month, not just 2 weeks, and you get the whole program, no restrictions. After a month you need to register. I remember when I first got it, many years ago, I managed to click away the warnings each time, and used it free for two months! But then I realised the program was so good the designer deserved his (very small) fee. All the upgrades since then have been free. It's the best piece of software - of any kind! - that I've ever used, because the interface is so clear and easy to use. (He's added a few unnecessary bells and whistles over the years, but they don't get in the way.)

You don't have to download tracks, you can record any streaming audio in real time (that's what I usually do). It's a little trickier with video, because it only works with MOV or MP4, and youtubes are FLV, so you need to download and convert them with other programs - plenty of free ones will do that, but they tend to come with irritating adware if you're not careful.

As for how to learn this specific arrangement, I agree with others that it's pretty advanced, with lots of different sections. But if you really want to do it, don't let its complexity faze you. Remember that great Chinese saying: a 1,000 mile journey begins with a single step. Each step is easy! Just don't think about the 1000 miles while you're doing it. Start at the beginning, take each bar (even each beat of the pattern) in turn, get it right, move on to the next, then join them together. That steady, linear, incremental process is how to do it.
It will take a long time - so be prepared for that. But you should enjoy each stage of the process, don't be impatient. (That 1,000 mile journey is much more enjoyable if you walk than if you run; don't get into a sweat, just relax and enjoy the scenery. Take a rest when you need to.)

And if you find you get bored with this one - there's plenty of easier pieces to take a crack at, to take time off and come back to it later.