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Old 04-03-2017, 05:11 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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Default Arranging study group session #1

There has been some discussion of arranging in the Play sub forum lately, and it seems that enough folks are interested in a study group to get one started. It seems a good idea to have one of these at at time so we are not spread too thin. We can just name these groups by number.

Here are my thoughts on how this thread should go. However, it would be best for all of us to agree on a set of "rules" to keep order and focus in this thread. however, what i say here is not "gospel". I am suggesting how I think it should go. We can certainly discuss it and anybody can provide input. but in the end, we should all agree on some sort of "ground rules" designed to keep the thread on track.

I apologize ahead of time if this sounds somehow "elitist". that is not the intention at all. My thoughts are more in line with how we used to run study groups in college. Since those groups were highly effective and fun (well, as much fun as studying for a mid-term or final can be...), I thought similar ideas might apply here.

Each group will focus on one tune. We will each work on our own version, rather than having a group version. It doesn't matter where we get the original version from - by ear, a lead sheet, full score that we scale down, etc. However, we do each want to start our own arrangement from scratch.

We will post periodically, either via video or audio recording, what we have done so far. Since we all probably have our own methods of arranging, what we post will likely be quite different. some may always post a complete arrangement that evolves, some may have only a few measures. It doesn't matter.

What does matter is that those who post arrangements, should be willing to talk about how they do it so we can share ideas freely and "steal" from each other.

Those who want to post advice and "how to" should be posting their own arrangements too. We don't really want "armchair quarterbacks" in this thread because it is all too easy to get away from our focus. By being practitioners in this thread, the focus remains on actually doing the arrangement and contributing from that knowledge and experience.

It is not at all important how experienced or knowledgeable each individual is, but it is important that we all be actually arranging. Also, the arranging style isn't important either. some will probably do Travis picking style, others chord melody, and others a classical styling, and whatever else anybody comes up with. Variety is good.

That said, anyone can post questions and get answers. This thread is for learning, and not everybody feels ready to start arranging. We all will learn from each other, and there will come a time when those not ready in this thread will be in one of the future threads.

For this first arranging thread, I suggest we do "When You Wish Upon A Star". Somebody recommended that in Grinning Boy's thread in the "Show and Tell" section, and that seems like a nice alternative to "Over the Rainbow" that we worked on a bi in the original arranging thread recently.

Thoughts? Ready to get going?

Thanks,

Tony
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  #2  
Old 04-03-2017, 06:27 PM
EllaMom EllaMom is offline
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Love it, Tony. I am an arranger-in-training, or an arranger-to-be. So I will be lurking and learning, mostly. Thanks for starting this!
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Old 04-03-2017, 06:32 PM
Nailpicker Nailpicker is offline
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Tony, please check your PMs
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Old 04-03-2017, 06:33 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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Originally Posted by EllaMom View Post
Love it, Tony. I am an arranger-in-training, or an arranger-to-be. So I will be lurking and learning, mostly. Thanks for starting this!
You can certainly jump in and ask questions anytime too. I hope we can invite folks to do that. My only concern is "armchair quarterbacks" - folks not working on, and posting, arrangements, but giving advice and possibly steering the conversation away from the core study group focus.

Tony
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  #5  
Old 04-03-2017, 06:43 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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Does anybody know how to post an MP3 to an AGF post without using Soundcloud. Though not a novice to computers, I am novice when it comes to posting media to the forum.

I have a Youtube acount and can post videos, but am wondering about MP3s incase anybody wants to do that. Do you have to have a Soundcloud account (or similar service)? I know that when I post photos, I use photobucket.com and for videos, Youtube.com. Are MP3s also handled like that?

Thanks,

Tony
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"Alexa, where's my stuff?"
- Anxiously waiting...
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  #6  
Old 04-03-2017, 07:22 PM
Pitar Pitar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeltrans View Post
Does anybody know how to post an MP3 to an AGF post without using Soundcloud. Though not a novice to computers, I am novice when it comes to posting media to the forum.

I have a Youtube acount and can post videos, but am wondering about MP3s incase anybody wants to do that. Do you have to have a Soundcloud account (or similar service)? I know that when I post photos, I use photobucket.com and for videos, Youtube.com. Are MP3s also handled like that?

Thanks,

Tony
Box. It's a file storage site. Simple, free, no frills and easy to use. I use it for all Show & Tell stuff I put up.

I already know this song (instrumental) so I will be a spectator throughout. I promise not to kibitz.
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Old 04-03-2017, 07:30 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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Originally Posted by Pitar View Post
Box. It's a file storage site. Simple, free, no frills and easy to use. I use it for all Show & Tell stuff I put up.

I already know this song (instrumental) so I will be a spectator throughout. I promise not to kibitz.
Thanks for the recommendation, Pitar. I hope the reasons why I am asking for the ground rules makes sense and is not offensive to anyone. We will see how this thread turns out and then adjust accordingly, maybe even loosening up in the future. We had to do this sort of thing in college too, in order for the study group to be effective.

Thanks...

Tony
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“The guitar is a wonderful thing which is understood by few.”
— Franz Schubert

"Alexa, where's my stuff?"
- Anxiously waiting...
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  #8  
Old 04-03-2017, 07:34 PM
Pitar Pitar is offline
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Originally Posted by tbeltrans View Post
Thanks for the recommendation, Pitar. I hope the reasons why I am asking for the ground rules makes sense and is not offensive to anyone. We will see how this thread turns out and then adjust accordingly, maybe even loosening up in the future. We had to do this sort of thing in college too, in order for the study group to be effective.

Thanks...

Tony
I read through your post and find nothing contentious and everything good spirited (well thought out).
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  #9  
Old 04-03-2017, 07:52 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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Originally Posted by Pitar View Post
I read through your post and find nothing contentious and everything good spirited (well thought out).
Thanks Pitar! I appreciate the feedback. It is easy to do this sort of thing in a face to face study group, but I never know how folks will read it as just words without the body language, tone of voice, etc. in a forum post.

Tony
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"Alexa, where's my stuff?"
- Anxiously waiting...
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  #10  
Old 04-04-2017, 05:34 AM
campy campy is offline
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Total beginner here and I think it would be interesting for me to follow. Nowhere near the point of contributing other than my opinion.
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  #11  
Old 04-04-2017, 07:33 AM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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Originally Posted by campy View Post
Total beginner here and I think it would be interesting for me to follow. Nowhere near the point of contributing other than my opinion.
Welcome campy. Feel free to ask questions. We benefit from asking questions and those contributing, from answering them. It forces folks to really think through what they are doing, at least it does that for me.

Tony
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— Franz Schubert

"Alexa, where's my stuff?"
- Anxiously waiting...
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  #12  
Old 04-04-2017, 07:44 AM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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I have found a fakebook version of "When You Wish Upon A Star" (WYWUAS) in the book "The Movie Fakebook" from Hal Leonard. It is presented in the key of C. A quick check of the range from lowest (G on the open 3rd string) to highest note (D on the 10th fret, 1st string), indicates to me that the keys of C or D would work. I will initially go with C.

I am going to do this arrangement on my classical guitar, which has 12 frets to the body, o in the key of D, the highest note would be E on the 1st string at the 12th fret. That sets the upper limit for me (but not for somebody doing this on a guitar with 14 frets to the body and/or a cutaway).

I like to aim for one of the keys C, A, G, E, or D for my arrangements to take advantage of any open strings where possible. For a chord melody arrangement, I will typically stay in the key the tune is presented in, because I am using mostly, if not all, movable chord forms and can do that in any key. To me, if you know the fretboard, there is no such thing as an "easy" key or a "hard" key. Instead, the guitar has certain attributes that we can take advantage of with certain styles of arranging. The open strings provide the best chance for sustain and also a much bigger, more resonant sound, especially on a classical guitar.

Over the next day or two (or three...depending on how much time I have to devote on any given day) I want to come up with an initial written arrangement and scan it in to post here, as I did in the previous thread on arranging, along with a video. In the other thread, I stopped at that point because I was only interested in how to get started, as we were discussing. In this thread, if there seems to be interest and participation, I want to continue revising and posting the arrangement as it evolves.

I am really interested in what other folks come up with and sharing ideas, so I hope I am not alone in doing the arrangement here.

Tony
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“The guitar is a wonderful thing which is understood by few.”
— Franz Schubert

"Alexa, where's my stuff?"
- Anxiously waiting...
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  #13  
Old 04-04-2017, 10:26 AM
Grinning Boy Grinning Boy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeltrans View Post
I have found a fakebook version of "When You Wish Upon A Star" (WYWUAS) in the book "The Movie Fakebook" from Hal Leonard. It is presented in the key of C. A quick check of the range from lowest (G on the open 3rd string) to highest note (D on the 10th fret, 1st string), indicates to me that the keys of C or D would work. I will initially go with C.

I am going to do this arrangement on my classical guitar, which has 12 frets to the body, o in the key of D, the highest note would be E on the 1st string at the 12th fret. That sets the upper limit for me (but not for somebody doing this on a guitar with 14 frets to the body and/or a cutaway).

I like to aim for one of the keys C, A, G, E, or D for my arrangements to take advantage of any open strings where possible. For a chord melody arrangement, I will typically stay in the key the tune is presented in, because I am using mostly, if not all, movable chord forms and can do that in any key. To me, if you know the fretboard, there is no such thing as an "easy" key or a "hard" key. Instead, the guitar has certain attributes that we can take advantage of with certain styles of arranging. The open strings provide the best chance for sustain and also a much bigger, more resonant sound, especially on a classical guitar.

Over the next day or two (or three...depending on how much time I have to devote on any given day) I want to come up with an initial written arrangement and scan it in to post here, as I did in the previous thread on arranging, along with a video. In the other thread, I stopped at that point because I was only interested in how to get started, as we were discussing. In this thread, if there seems to be interest and participation, I want to continue revising and posting the arrangement as it evolves.

I am really interested in what other folks come up with and sharing ideas, so I hope I am not alone in doing the arrangement here.

Tony
First Tony, I want to personally express how much I appreciate you coming up with this idea and getting it up and running. For me this is becoming one of those things that come along every now and then and re-ignites my guitar passion flames!

I also really want to thank you for suggesting that Zoom Q8. I had shied away from videos as I wan't sure where to even begin, but spending just a little time with its instructions manual got me up and running. Technology is great!

A few years ago I printed out When You Wish Upon a Star from Wikifonia, but for whatever reason never really gave it a go. I don't know why though because it has all the requisites in my opinion. It has a beautiful melody and it's recognizable. The tune will likely stir memories in people. And I didn't realize it has a wonderful bridge that may be my favorite part of the song.

I haven't picked a key yet for myself as I want to sit down and study on it a little while. But I can't wait to get going on it.

By the way, I like everything you wrote as far as the rules etc. One suggestion I would make to see if you and others agree. I understand your concerns about armchair quarterbacking. However, I wonder if we may still want to encourage general comments or posts about tricks and techniques for things such as chord substitutions, embellishments, etc. There may be people willing to share some great knowledge and tips that don't want to jump full board into the group. Perhaps if we said these types of comments were welcome as general observations, but not as criticisms of a specific person's arrangement?

Again thanks Tony!
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  #14  
Old 04-04-2017, 10:31 AM
EllaMom EllaMom is offline
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I just ordered the Hal Leonard Movie Fakebook. I want to follow along here. By learning the song, and then reading about how others make it their own, I'm sure to learn something. Fun!
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  #15  
Old 04-04-2017, 10:45 AM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grinning Boy View Post
First Tony, I want to personally express how much I appreciate you coming up with this idea and getting it up and running. For me this is becoming one of those things that come along every now and then and re-ignites my guitar passion flames!

I also really want to thank you for suggesting that Zoom Q8. I had shied away from videos as I wan't sure where to even begin, but spending just a little time with its instructions manual got me up and running. Technology is great!

A few years ago I printed out When You Wish Upon a Star from Wikifonia, but for whatever reason never really gave it a go. I don't know why though because it has all the requisites in my opinion. It has a beautiful melody and it's recognizable. The tune will likely stir memories in people. And I didn't realize it has a wonderful bridge that may be my favorite part of the song.

I haven't picked a key yet for myself as I want to sit down and study on it a little while. But I can't wait to get going on it.

By the way, I like everything you wrote as far as the rules etc. One suggestion I would make to see if you and others agree. I understand your concerns about armchair quarterbacking. However, I wonder if we may still want to encourage general comments or posts about tricks and techniques for things such as chord substitutions, embellishments, etc. There may be people willing to share some great knowledge and tips that don't want to jump full board into the group. Perhaps if we said these types of comments were welcome as general observations, but not as criticisms of a specific person's arrangement?

Again thanks Tony!
Thanks Grinning Boy. I am sure that whatever key you decide to do the tune in, it will be a really fine arrangement.

As for allowing other people to comment, I wrestle with that mainly because it would be (in my personal opinion) best if the folks giving ideas were doing so from real world experience of actually doing arrangements, at least in a study group. However, I am not the last word on this. It isn't my thread - I just started it. So if folks want to let people who are not arrangers themselves, talk about arranging, that is fine with me.

I wrote up my usual "blocked in" arrangement and played through it a few times. The tune, to me, feels like a chord melody - big, lush chords with the melody floating on top, rather than a fingerpicking tune. I think at least part of that is because there is very little syncopation - almost all the melody notes fall on a beat.

Also, some of the chords in the book I got the tune from just didn't sound quite right to me. I used some chord subs in those cases. I need to play through the tune more before doing a video so it at least sounds like something coherent, but a video is forthcoming (forthwith ?).

I should clarify what I mean by "chord subs" here. I agree with Howard Morgan when he says that adding color tones to a chord is not a substitution because it is still the same chord. Using a different chord (even if it is an inversion of the original chord, but serving as a different chord in context) is a substitution (i.e. a G13 is still at heart a G7, while a b5 sub - Db13 IS a sub).

Some people do consider a G13 to be a chord substitution for a G7. Who am I to argue about it? But for me personally, it is easier to keep track of in my mind harmonically, to think of it the way Howard Morgan did.

Tony
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"Alexa, where's my stuff?"
- Anxiously waiting...
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