Corporal Punishment for Children -- Continued

[Glennwillow]

Folks, please avoid personal, ad hominem attacks on each other. We can disagree with each other without being evil people, child abusers, or discipline wimps.

Thanks,
Glenn

[seannx]

Originally Posted by mc1

if we learned anything from that thread, we learned not to beat a dead horse, but rather to calmly, compassionately and non-violently spank a dead horse.



i prefer to call it consensual verbal flogging. just kidding. i agree, glenn is just doing some site housekeeping, fine moderator that he is.

epic thread was too epic for the server.

[Herb Hunter]

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

Spanking them is now called "violence”. ...

No, spanking falls under the definition of violence. The intent of spanking may be good as when it is used to teach the child or it may be immoral as when vengefully spanking. Both cases cause a degree of pain and, in a technical sense, constitute violence.

[frankhond]

Originally Posted by Twelvefret

I am glad to hear you refrained yourself because it sounds like you can't decide between discipline and being a passive enabler.

Let me be absolutely clear here.

I sympathize and empathize with the feelings of frustration and anger every parent experiences sometimes, as a parent I have experienced these myself. This comes with the complex territory of being a parent.

However it is under no circumstances ok to hit a child. I have forcefully argued this throughout the end of the original thread, and will not reiterate all that stuff here. Please read my previous posts.

[Twelvefret]

Originally Posted by frankhond

Let me be absolutely clear here.

I sympathize and empathize with the feelings of frustration and anger every parent experiences sometimes, as a parent I have experienced these myself. This comes with the complex territory of being a parent.

However it is under no circumstances ok to hit a child. I have forcefully argued this throughout the end of the original thread, and will not reiterate all that stuff here. Please read my previous posts.

Your opinion does not establish what is acceptable. Spanking is not violence. Spanking is not from frustration or anger. It can be, but that is not the intent. Any action may be done out of anger or frustration, but that does not mean everything is wrong.

You have been forceful and perhaps some agree with your parenting style. All that means is there is multiple options.

Spanking with the intent to establish parental authority in order to cause the child to obey and thus live may be a useful method. No action should be done in anger or frustration. If anger and frustration become the norm, the parent in not being an adult.

The overall structure is to train a child to follow a path for healthy and wise living. In any discipline, discomfort is normal. We must have our selfish and ego centric self challenged if needed.

Leaving a child to get over themselves does not work. It may not be a problem in a family with one child, but add multiple children and that's where the real violence begins. Nothing worse than three or four self centered people in one house.

[Twelvefret]

Originally Posted by Herb Hunter

No, spanking falls under the definition of violence. The intent of spanking may be good as when it is used to teach the child or it may be immoral as when vengefully spanking. Both cases cause a degree of pain and, in a technical sense, constitute violence.

Pain is not violence. Where did you come up with that notion?

[RustyZombie]

Originally Posted by Twelvefret

Your opinion does not establish what is acceptable. Spanking is not violence. Spanking is not from frustration or anger. It can be, but that is not the intent. Any action may be done out of anger or frustration, but that does not mean everything is wrong.

You have been forceful and perhaps some agree with your parenting style. All that means is there is multiple options.

Spanking with the intent to establish parental authority in order to cause the child to obey and thus live may be a useful method. No action should be done in anger or frustration. If anger and frustration become the norm, the parent in not being an adult.

The overall structure is to train a child to follow a path for healthy and wise living. In any discipline, discomfort is normal. We must have our selfish and ego centric self challenged if needed.

Leaving a child to get over themselves does not work. It may not be a problem in a family with one child, but add multiple children and that's where the real violence begins. Nothing worse than three or four self centered people in one house.

Spanking is violence. It has never been anything but violence. To say otherwise in contrary to the very definition of violence. However, though this may seem to be an unpopular notion, violence can have positive applications as well as negative. It is up to the individual to decide whether spanking is a positive application of violence. Just because you may feel uncomfortable calling spanking violence because you feel it is a positive application (I'm assuming) doesn't change what it is.

I'm not saying that spanking it bad. I'm saying that one cannot just change the definition of words simply to suit their comfort level.

[frankhond]

Originally Posted by Twelvefret

.. Any action may be done out of anger or frustration, but that does not mean everything is wrong.

...You have been forceful and perhaps some agree with your parenting style. All that means is there is multiple options...

...Spanking with the intent to establish parental authority in order to cause the child to obey and thus live may be a useful method...

Irregardless if done in anger or not, one should never hit a child. Period.

Parenting has indeed multiple options. But some of them, such as hitting the child, are archaic and should never be in the toolchest.

Finally, I don't advocate "leaving the children to themselves". There are many options available which establish discipline and leadership in a constructive way. While it may be easier to simply keep doing what one has been doing, it is well worth the trouble to question the archaic ways, and find other methods more appropriate to the values of contemporary society.

[Larry Pattis]

Let's just agree that waterboarding is probably the best method of disciplining your child.

[Herb Hunter]

Originally Posted by Twelvefret

Pain is not violence. Where did you come up with that notion?

I didn't. You seem to have made it up. For the life of me I can't understand how you could misconstrue the phrase, "spanking falls under the definition of violence", as, pain is violence. The cases I mentioned constitute violence. I didn't write that pain is violence. Pain is its consequence. And here I thought my previous post was clear enough.

[Geof S.]

I don't think small children are quite as delicate as some people are suggesting.

I was spanked once when I was a kid. I don't remember what is was for, but I was 3 or 4 years old and acting out and my Dad spanked me. It was more humiliating than painful, but even the humiliation only lasted a few hours.

However, I learned a lesson from that one time: when my Dad spoke in a certain voice, I had better start behaving and following orders. This lesson stood me in good stead for the rest of my childhood, as my parents had my best interests at heart. So I can say without reservation, that my Dad spanking me and asserting his dominance that one time had a positive effect on my life. If he hadn't done so, I might have grown up out of control like some children we have all encountered.

I am starting to believe that almost all extreme opinions are wrong. The idea that no corporal punishment of children should be allowed under any circumstances is, to me, an extreme opinion. I don't see the reason to treat a small child like a little adult, and to debate/reason with them. They are not little adults; their reasoning abilities are still developing. Sometimes they simply have to be told what to do, and there need to be consequences for disobeying.

[Teleman52]

Originally Posted by Geof S.

I don't think small children are quite as delicate as some people are suggesting.

I was spanked once when I was a kid. I don't remember what is was for, but I was 3 or 4 years old and acting out and my Dad spanked me. It was more humiliating than painful, but even the humiliation only lasted a few hours.

I am starting to believe that almost all extreme opinions are wrong. The idea that no corporal punishment of children should be allowed under any circumstances is, to me, an extreme opinion. I don't see the reason to treat a small child like a little adult, and to debate/reason with them. They are not little adults; their reasoning abilities are still developing. Sometimes they simply have to be told what to do, and there need to be consequences for disobeying.

These are the best little tid bits I've read out of this entire exchange.The very small amount of pain Spanking causes is not permanent, the discipline that it teaches, is permenant.

I was thinking about this earlier. Have you ever tried to reason with a 2 or 3 year old? If you have, you failed, there's just no way it can be done. I'm not saying it's difficult, I'm saying it's impossible, so those that are saying to use reason in these instances, I question whether or not you have ever had a child.

Very true, they are not little adults. The way you treat your child is vastly different than the way you treat a peer. So any analogy comparing the two is simply irrelevant to whether or not spanking is right.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by Larry Pattis

Let's just agree that waterboarding is probably the best method of disciplining your child.

it's also best for interrogating your kids.

Originally Posted by Geof S.

I don't think small children are quite as delicate as some people are suggesting.

I was spanked once when I was a kid. I don't remember what is was for, but I was 3 or 4 years old and acting out and my Dad spanked me. It was more humiliating than painful, but even the humiliation only lasted a few hours.

However, I learned a lesson from that one time: when my Dad spoke in a certain voice, I had better start behaving and following orders. This lesson stood me in good stead for the rest of my childhood, as my parents had my best interests at heart. So I can say without reservation, that my Dad spanking me and asserting his dominance that one time had a positive effect on my life. If he hadn't done so, I might have grown up out of control like some children we have all encountered.

I am starting to believe that almost all extreme opinions are wrong. The idea that no corporal punishment of children should be allowed under any circumstances is, to me, an extreme opinion. I don't see the reason to treat a small child like a little adult, and to debate/reason with them. They are not little adults; their reasoning abilities are still developing. Sometimes they simply have to be told what to do, and there need to be consequences for disobeying.

kids can grow up to be well adjusted in spite of being hit. people are very resilient, and can cope with a lot of abuse.

of course there needs to be consequences when kids misbehave. however, hitting isn't the only or most effective method of discipline.

Originally Posted by Teleman52

These are the best little tid bits I've read out of this entire exchange.The very small amount of pain Spanking causes is not permanent, the discipline that it teaches, is permanent.
...

this makes a very good sound bite, but unfortunately i don't think it is true.

Originally Posted by Teleman52

...

I was thinking about this earlier. Have you ever tried to reason with a 2 or 3 year old? If you have, you failed, there's just no way it can be done. I'm not saying it's difficult, I'm saying it's impossible, so those that are saying to use reason in these instances, I question whether or not you have ever had a child.

Very true, they are not little adults. The way you treat your child is vastly different than the way you treat a peer. So any analogy comparing the two is simply irrelevant to whether or not spanking is right.

whew. good thing no one is saying that.

[frankhond]

As a change of perspective, may I suggest watching this video. No, it's not anti-corporal-punishment propaganda, it's about corporal punishment in South Korean schools. Keep in mind when watching the sleepy ones at the end, that in South Korea students often go to school 12 hours or more per day, including extra tutors after school.

In particular, observe the responses from the parents. While the violence is appalling and probably way more than most people here would accept as "spanking", the rhetoric is in many ways quite similar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bv_d6laoxzM

[frankhond]

Originally Posted by Geof S.

I don't think small children are quite as delicate as some people are suggesting.

[...]

I don't see the reason to treat a small child like a little adult, and to debate/reason with them. They are not little adults; their reasoning abilities are still developing. Sometimes they simply have to be told what to do, and there need to be consequences for disobeying.

True.

But there are other, more constructive techniques for asserting dominance available, which work well on 2-3 year old children. It's too bad that many people don't know them.