barbera pups

[guitaniac]

I'm disappointed that you've gotten no response to your inquiry from Barbera Soloist users, Dave. I'm interested in this pickup also, so I'll bump this thread back to the first page in the hopes of getting a response this time around.

I saw (earlier in this thread) that Paultergeist was planning to have a Soloist pickup installed, so we might be hearing from him soon.

FWIW, this is my favorite demo of a Soloist-equipped guitar. The sound is so rich and resonant that I suspect he's running through an Aura preamp. (It certainly appears that an Aura preamp is sitting on top of his amp.) The amplified sound starts around 5:18 in the vid.

https://youtu.be/9Ph5BwDEky4

[emmsone]

Guitarniac, Thanks for that

I actually emailed Rich Barbera directly through his website and got an answer pretty quickly, I was going to mention this here before the weekend but i got distracted and forgot.
Paraphrasing what he told me in answer to my own questions it seems

1) the output is very powerful, (although how you quantify that who knows) and that the built in preamps with volume/tone knobs are for convenience sake.

2) the output is 1 Mega Ohm, so same as K&K, JJB, Elevation etc


I still don't really have an answer as to combining with a lyric / 2mic or so but Rich sent me several links to passive install videos and i'm starting to wonder do I really actually need the mic/second source, it would clearly be nice, but it might be a hassle just to get a more "perfect" tone as the Soloist seems to sound great on its own in the videos i've seen it in such as the ones below and the one guitarniac linked.

here are the links

https://youtu.be/2lAO9cE1yCg

http://youtu.be/1GaK2ZVL5XM

https://youtu.be/wQrsXpwrm9g

http://youtu.be/_JE8V9cMIb8

[guitaniac]

Dave, (UPDATED - sorry Paul, I got my names confused.)

You can certainly add a mic later, if desired.

In the top video link which you provided, the player was supplementing his sound with an external mic. In the other vids, I was hearing the very direct and focused sound which seems typical (to my ear) of the Soloist sound. Its certainly a very quack free and pleasing sound, but I'd personally like some of the "air" and body ambiance that a mic would provide.

To my ear, the amplified sound in the link which I provided above has that air and ambiance. That's one reason that I suspect some Aura processing was used with that one. I also recall that my Baggs Hex-equipped guitar worked very well with a Mama Bear digital processor. I think of the Soloist as a quack-free version of the hex pickup, with the same advantages like good string separation, good string volume balance and superior feedback rejection.

[Paultergeist]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

PS I'd be very interested to learn how the Soloist compares to the Hex. Please follow up on that subject, after you've had a chance to try out the new setup.

Guitaniac,
As we discussed, I wanted to share a few preliminary thoughts regarding my Barbera pick-up install:

I have had very limited time to play the instrument thus far, but my early assessment is extremely favorable. I first ran the guitar straight into a PA channel through a 10-foot cable (no pre-amp), and it sounded fairly decent even in that configuration. I then ran the guitar into a Tech 21 Sansamp -- basically a pre-amp with an XLR output -- and fed the pre-amp output into the PA. I thought the sound was very nice, a very acoustic-sounding tone which really had little/no "piezo quack" to my ears. Straight into a pre-amp is, incidentally, the configuration Rich Barbera recommends for this pick-up. I did not need any extreme tone adjustments on the Sansamp; I think the pick-up just benefited from the signal boost. I have not yet had a chance to compare it directly against my Bagg Hexaphonic, but I plan to do so.

Another favorable observation (again, to my ears) of the Barbera pick-up was that -- although the actual string tone and volume seemed very present and clear -- I did not get the accentuation of fingernail *click* and string *squeak* (from sliding on the wound strings) which so often accompany nylon-string guitars with saddle transducers. The musical part of the signal just seemed quite prominent while the unwanted artifacts of putting a pick-up in a nylon-string guitar seemed markedly reduced. At least, this is how it seems to me thus far.

One rather odd tidbit is that the pick-up itself -- which essentially IS the saddle of the instrument once installed -- was not as long as the bone saddle it replaced. The consequence of this is that there is a little bit of extra saddle slot in the bridge on each side of the saddle. The actual string spacing of the pick-up, however, worked perfectly, so this is a non-issue for me, but at first when it caught my eye, it gave me pause. I suspect that the design of the pick-up requires consistent amounts of saddle material under each string.

Overall, I really like this pick-up; it is truly among the best I have ever encountered for nylon string. I need more playing time on it to refine my opinion, obviously, but I am very impressed and very pleased with the outcome of this pick-up installation thus far.

[mchalebk]

i recently took delivery of a custom Emerald carbon fiber 12-string that I had a Barbera Soloist pickup installed in. I don't have any recordings, but so far am very pleased with the plugged in sound of this guitar. I am running it straight into a Bose T1 digital mixer. I haven't made very many tweaks to the mixer channel yet in order to optimize the sound. I expect to add my Mama Bear modeling preamp to my live setup in the not too distant future.

I have plans to make some recordings to show how the pickup sounds dry and with Mama. Not sure when I'll be able to get to that (probably be a while).

[guitaniac]

Paultergeist & Brian,

Thanks much for the updates of your Soloist experiences. Good stuff!

Paulergeist,

Your comment about the too-short-for-the-slot saddle reminded me of when I had a Baggs LB6 in-saddle pickup installed in a Yamaha APX4. FWIW, my guitar tech put two little wood spacers on each side of the saddle. It looked very cool.

Brian,

Please let us know how your Mama Bear experiment goes. I look forward to hearing your recordings.

I recall that the #9 target guitar (slope shouldered jumbo) did wonders for the amplified sound of my Baggs Hex-equipped thin-body classical. It was ironic, as that target guitar was just too boomy with all the other guitars that I tried it with.
FWIW, I believe I was using the neutral input (#16) and doing my own pre-Mama EQ.

[Cochese]

Originally Posted by emmsone

Hi all,
this thread, (and the other Barbera Soloist thread http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...arbera+Soloist) have really made me consider one of these pickups, but i have a few more questions for those who own and/or have used them.

First, it seems the pickup is passive and the basic standard option would be a straight passive install, but I see a lot of the guitars pre-sold with the Soloist pickup seem to have batteries, or volume/tone controls indicating they are being used with onboard preamps, do these really make a noticeable difference here with the Soloist? is the passive output as hot as say a K&K? or does it really need the preamp to open up its tonal range?
I think if I went this direction and the if onboard preamp was worth it, i would probably go the Mi-Si endpin route.

Second, if its being run passively, does anyone know the impedance of this pickup, theres no actual specifications on the Barbera website?

Thirdly, several people have alluded to pairing it with the Miniflex mics, has anyone considered pairing it with the Lyric through its second channel? This would make it quite like the Anthem, but without the Elements characteristics and the blending would have to be done outboard.

FWIW, I have a JJB 330 in my current guitar, and if i'm playing on my own, or in a small group of musicians (2 or 3), the sound I can get is very natural and very pleasant. However, i've recently been playing it in our band (i'm the drummer 90% of the time so I haven't played the guitar in the band that much) and when its in the mix with a second acoustic or an electric guitar, a violin, 2 singers, piano/keys, drums and bass, my guitar sound just disappears, I might as well not even be playing even if I turn my volume up above where it should be.
This means finding a solution that sounds just as good on its own but has some "cut" to it, and this leads me maybe to the Soloist or a Soloist + "other" dual source option, or perhaps the Anthem SL which I do quite like despite not liking the Element (and most other USTs too) on its own much at all.

Thanks for the help as usual
Dave

Yes the pickup is meant for a 1 MegOhm source. It does have a strong output. The inclusion of a preamp or the use of one will be necessary if you plan on going direct to the board. If you have an acoustic amp or you plan on using a guitar amp you can run passively. It doesn't require as much EQ as many UST do. Having an onboard pre and tone controls will just make your guitar more gig ready. When I had it installed I just used it passively with my T21 Para Driver which as someone mentioned it works quite well with.

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by emmsone

2) the output is 1 Mega Ohm, so same as K&K, JJB, Elevation etc

Hi Dave,

I'm a little confused by this information. Does this mean that the pickup itself has a 1 Mega Ohm impedance, or that it works best looking into a preamp or amp which has a 1 Mega Ohm input impedance.

If the pickup itself has a 1 Mega Ohm impedance, it would likely work best looking into a preamp with a 10 Mega Ohms (or more) input impedance.

[Marek]

For my knowledge, either K&K Pure Mini type transducers (Elevation, JJB) or Barbera Soloist has bigger native impedance than 1MOhms.
I'm affrraid that it is even difficult to measure due to piezo element characteristics.
I think 1MOhm is rather suggested "best practices" preamp input value.
Higher impedance, apart from more bass-heavy sound, also will put more influence of the cable capacitance (I mean you need to use shorter and better quality cable).

[emmsone]

ok maybe i'm the confused one,
I think i've read about 3653 threads on K&K pickups and "impedance mismatching" with most saying it doesnt really matter but matching the 1 Mega Ohm preamps with the 1 Mega Ohm output seemed to be the way forward for those ultra sensitive ears.
So hence i've been indoctrinated into thinking that the K&K, JJB and Elevations all had a 1 Mega Ohm output (maybe they don't, if i'm wrong I apologise)

Here is the direct quote from what Mr Rich Barbera told me

"Soloist pickups are a high impedance pickup and so want an instrument level input -one megaohm- "


which now I read it again, is not the same as having a 1 Mega Ohm output. Apologies to all for any confusion.

[guitaniac]

Thanks for the clarification, Dave. Thanks also to Marek for the additional input.

From Mr. Barbera's quoted comment, it sounds like 1 Mohm is the optimum input impedance, or at least a sufficient input impedance, to properly accommodate the Soloist pickup.

Hopefully, the Soloist would work decently well with my old Fishman Platinum preamp (10 Mohms input impedance) and a relatively short 10' cable between the guitar and preamp.


The general rule of thumb for impedance matching (according to pickup system designer Rick Turner) is that the input impedance of the preamp should be at least ten times the impedance of the pickup, unless you're using a lower input impedance to intentionally roll off some of the signal's bass end. That might possibly be the case with the K&K pickup, as it tends to be pretty bassy.

To further complicate the issue, it should be mentioned that impedance will vary with the frequency of the signal, when the impedance includes capacitive reactance and/or inductive reactance, in addition to resistance. I believe that's why too low of an input impedance tends to cause more loss of the lower frequencies. When Fishman says their preamp has an input impedance of 10 Mohms, I believe that's at a default frequency of 1000Hz. (LOL, I just looked at the old Fishman Platinum manual and the input impedance is listed as "10MW". Apparently, we aren't the only ones who're confused.)

[Cochese]

I would'n get too bogged down by the numbers. Both the K&K and Barbera are recommended to be used with preamps that have a 1MegOhm input. I did use the Barbera at 1 Meg but it also worked fine with my T21 Para Driver DI which is 4.7 MegOhm and also with the 10 MegOhm Padi and no issues. I did have problems running my K&K pickup with the Baggs Padi which was easily fixed by placing a Boss TU2 (1MegOhm) tuner before the Padi. I have a Taylor with the K&K and that seems to work a bit better with the PADI than the other guitar I had it in but can still be problematic if I really whack the guitar.

Regardless of the output a good preamp to condition the pickup is a good idea. I did recently get the Fishman Platinum Pro Analog EQ which is 10 Meg but haven't had a chance to try it with the K&K. I kind of wish Baggs and Fishman would provide an adjustable input impedance since there are obviously pickups on the market that don't play nice with the super high input impedance. I had a Lehele Sunday Driver preamp that switches from 1 to 4 MegOhm.

I kind of doubt that the Soloist would have the same issues as the K&K since it is not microphonic. With the K&K it wasn't just a bassy tone problem, when I would do any type of percussive technique the Baggs would clip and drastically compress the signal.

[guitaniac]

Cochese,

Of all the preamps which I tried with the K&K Pure Mini, the PADI sounded the worst for my taste (extremely bassy). The Fishman Platinum worked pretty well with the Pure Mini, so go figure. They both have a 10 Mohms input impedance, according to the specs.

Thanks for the observation that the Soloist works well with the PADI. That gives me confidence that it would probably work well with the Platinum as well.

[iim7V7IM7]

My Acoustic Image 2R Series III has a 1 Mohm input and works perfectly so long as my archtop's volume pot is turned up (say, 2/3rd to 3/4 or higher). I use the Barbera to blend together with my magnetic pickup.

[Cochese]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

Cochese,

Of all the preamps which I tried with the K&K Pure Mini, the PADI sounded the worst for my taste (extremely bassy). The Fishman Platinum worked pretty well with the Pure Mini, so go figure. They both have a 10 Mohms input impedance, according to the specs.

Thanks for the observation that the Soloist works well with the PADI. That gives me confidence that it would probably work well with the Platinum as well.

Its a pretty easy fix to correct the impedance mismatch by inserting a pedal with a 1 megOhm input like a Boss TU2 or similar. I think there is more to it than the EQ. I've had the PADI for years but I think it works best for "fixing" feedback issues and mild tone shaping. Both the Fishman Platinum Pro & T21 Para Driver work better for more drastic tone shaping. While they all do similar things there are differences in the "Q" of the various frequency bands. There is also the overall "baked in sound" of the preamp.

Also, if you can hear your instrument acoustically while trying to Eq it through a system you won't do it accurately. In the studio you listen back while not playing and can tweak things better.