MARTIN vs TAYLOR

[ROB S]

I currently have a Taylor 314ce steel string and want to venture into the nylon world. My inital thoughts would be a nylon hybrid instead of a classical. Two considerations are the Taylor 314ce-N and the Martin 000c. I have not tried either one yet, and I know that's what I need to do, but I would be interested in any opinions from the nylon guys. Or, is their a different / better choice. I'm open to suggestions from the experts. Thank you.

[wcap]

There are folks here who play and really like some of the nylon crossover type guitars. Some of these guitars seem pretty nice.

But why are classical guitars off of the table for you? A decent classical guitar is a fabulous instrument, with great tone, really good volume/dynamic range, great balance and clarity (but with a lovely rich tone), and super responsive. And if you want a nylon string guitar that can really put out a lot of sound do consider a classical - my classical rivals my Goodall in volume (well, not quite, but closer than you might think - and it can hold its own really well with my wife's and daughter's very loud violin and flute) and is definitely a lot louder than my Martin 000-15.

And classical guitars are not just for playing classical music. A lot of my fingerstyle stuff sounds better on my classical than on either of my steel string guitars. For some examples of a classical guitar used for non-classical music browse my YouTube videos (Comfort Food, and Falling in Love, in particular).

One thing to realize: nylon strings require good nails and good right hand technique for really great tone and volume. I would spend considerable time with nylon string guitars (classicals or otherwise) in shops before buying in order to get your right hand a bit more used to them - it will be hard to properly evaluate the guitars otherwise. If you have a friend who is a decent classical player, take that person along if he/she is willing to have him/her play some of the guitars for you.

When I was classical guitar shopping about 8 years ago I was finding that while there were some decent instruments less than 1K (e.g. the La Patrie guitars in particular), once one got into, say, the $1000 - $3000 range there were guitars of significantly better quality that were in a whole different league (but I did not necessarily find the 3K classicals better than some of the 1K ones - indeed, the one I liked the best was a Burguet that was selling at the time at just over $1000). All the guitars I ended up seriously considering were Spanish made.

By the way, if you go the classical route, some classical guitar websites make the point that in the lower price ranges your best classical guitars usually have cedar tops (though I guess some of the most fabulous classicals in the really high price ranges have spruce tops).

[fitness1]

If you are really interested in unplugged sound too, I'd look at Aparicio, Alhambra,Cervantes, Cordoba, (I'm sure there are others that aren't coming to mind right now) crossover guitars....they will be much more alive and lightly built.

Buy used and save yourself some money, then if you aren't bonding, send it down the road and try again!

[ukejon]

Have played both (not extensively but about 1/2 hour each) and to be candid I was not overly impressed with the musicality or responsiveness of either one. They seemed a tad overbuilt. As fitness1 suggests, there are better crossovers out there. Some good luthiers, including Gary Zimnicki up in Michigan, make versions of this design.

[lfoo6952]

Acoustic Guitar magazine did a comparison of 5 hybrids in their November issue: Alhambra, Cordoba, Kenny Hill, Martin, and Taylor. They liked the Alhambra, Cordoba, and Kenny Hill over both the Martin and Taylor.

[dweezil]

How about a Lowden or Avalon nylon?

[aknow]

Originally Posted by wcap

There are folks here who play and really like some of the nylon crossover type guitars. Some of these guitars seem pretty nice.

But why are classical guitars off of the table for you? A decent classical guitar is a fabulous instrument, with great tone, really good volume/dynamic range, great balance and clarity (but with a lovely rich tone), and super responsive. And if you want a nylon string guitar that can really put out a lot of sound do consider a classical - my classical rivals my Goodall in volume (well, not quite, but closer than you might think - and it can hold its own really well with my wife's and daughter's very loud violin and flute) and is definitely a lot louder than my Martin 000-15.

And classical guitars are not just for playing classical music. A lot of my fingerstyle stuff sounds better on my classical than on either of my steel string guitars. For some examples of a classical guitar used for non-classical music browse my YouTube videos (Comfort Food, and Falling in Love, in particular).

One thing to realize: nylon strings require good nails and good right hand technique for really great tone and volume. I would spend considerable time with nylon string guitars (classicals or otherwise) in shops before buying in order to get your right hand a bit more used to them - it will be hard to properly evaluate the guitars otherwise. If you have a friend who is a decent classical player, take that person along if he/she is willing to have him/her play some of the guitars for you.

When I was classical guitar shopping about 8 years ago I was finding that while there were some decent instruments less than 1K (e.g. the La Patrie guitars in particular), once one got into, say, the $1000 - $3000 range there were guitars of significantly better quality that were in a whole different league (but I did not necessarily find the 3K classicals better than some of the 1K ones - indeed, the one I liked the best was a Burguet that was selling at the time at just over $1000). All the guitars I ended up seriously considering were Spanish made.

By the way, if you go the classical route, some classical guitar websites make the point that in the lower price ranges your best classical guitars usually have cedar tops (though I guess some of the most fabulous classicals in the really high price ranges have spruce tops).

WCAT gives Great Advice. My entry level Ramirez projects 300% what my 'crossover' does, at 1/3 the price!!

[texasdw]

I agree with WCAP. I love my Taylor 414ceN. But...I'm in the market for a traditional classical to add to the stable because I've found even relatively "cheap" classicals have more meat to them than my hybrid. A hybrid is good for what it is (thin narrow neck, decent pickup, durable, etc). But it's not a substitute for a bona fide classical. It just doesn't have the depth of sound.

Incidentally, I've played a fair number of classicals that when set up properly were as easy to play as many of my guitars despite the 2-inch neck width, sans radius, higher action etc.

[wcap]

Regarding setup and action: Traditionally, classical guitars tend to have high action, in part because the strings vibrate with greater amplitude than heavier, higher tension steel strings and they need the space to do that. But if you have a decent quality classical, and someone skilled at doing good setups, the action can be lowered.

When I first got my Burguet classical the action bothered me a bit (though it was no higher than my old Takamine classical). Marty at The Podium adjusted this for me (and also compensated the saddle just a bit to improve intonation on the 2nd and 3rd strings - a common issue with classical guitars) and got it quite low and very comfortable without taking it to the point of having strings buzz (even with very heavy-handed playing). I think I lost a little bit of volume with the lowered saddle, but it was not bad, and a good tradeoff for me at the time. Now that I'm a much better player I have considered going back to how it was at the start to maybe try to get the most sound out of this guitar as possible, but the guitar is wonderful as it is (with a good, strong voice and lovely tone), and it plays really well, so I probably will not ever bother to do this.

[StephenHD35]

I've played the Taylor and I own the Martin. I wouldn't bother with either one. My 000C nylon is either going to be donated or traded in toward the purchase of something else.

[Timothy Lawler]

I think the most important thing in buying a guitar is to play a lot of them and buy the one that you connect with artistically.

That said, I've played the hybrid guitars and they left me cold. But that's just me. YMMV.

[lodi_55]

This is another case where it depends on what your goal is. Unplugged, my 714 CE nylon is umimpressive. A very quiet guitar that doesn't project incredibly well. Of course, I can't compare a cross-over to my classical or flamenco as its apples to oranges. But last night I played at a crowded restaurant (150+ people) and that is where the guitar shines. Even at a higher volume than I'm comfortable with on the Bose L1, the 714 maintained a very pure sound without feedback or any other unpleasantness. I credit both the guitar as well as Taylor's onboard electronics!

[mikealpine]

I've got a 214ce-N that is less than a year old that I never play. I bought it then changed focus in what I started playing. If you're interested in discussing a possible purchase, let me know. It sounds nice, but now I play much more electric.

[Revelation]

I saw an artist play an acoustic guitar and thought it sounded great. I later found out it was a Taylor 314ce-N and was shocked that it was nylon because it sounded closer to an steel string and fell in love with it. The brighter more open sound and punch it has make me very attracted to the guitar. Then I saw it's price and was a little disappointed. Do I have to spend that much on this type of guitar?

I have a Takamine classical guitar that I only played when I play classical guitar style which is not too often. I like the hybrid nylon guitar because I like the neck better, the larger body which has better projection, and brighter tone which seems to be better for rock folk music than classical guitars. Also when you plug it in, man does it sound great for rock/folk and even Christian contemporary music. With listening with headphones with the Taylor vs the Martin, I found preferred the Martin 000C over the Taylor because it has a little more warmth but it is still brighter and more open that the darker sound of a classical guitar. The classical neck I am not a fan of either.

Some good points were made about a classical guitar, and perhaps if I spend around $1,000 on a better classical guitar, I may have a different opinion on them being a good option for music outside of classical. But I like the steel string design better than the classical and think it is an excellent option to complement a steel string guitar or just to get a different sound for a McCartney-ish or James Taylor type of song. On some classical guitars I hear, they just sound too classical for me for style I like. Another guitar player I admire who plays nylon guitars is Lindsey Buckingham. That sound he gets is great.

So for someone who wants a nylon string guitar for folk/rock or even contemporary acoustic sound that is not too meaty or warm and closer to a steel string but lacks the metalic sound of steel strings, it seems the hybrids are the best option. Wish I could play one for a month or two and see if my opinion would change.

[Dave T]

I owned a Taylor 514ce-N, then traded it for a 512ce-N. Both of them sound OK plugged in (but not like a classical guitar) and neither of them was impressive un-pluged. I think they were just built too heavy for the low tension of nylon to drive the tops and produce, or project good sound.

I then traded the 512ce-N for a Custom Shop 000-C from Martin. Sounded better unplugged than either Taylor but my thick, arthritic fingers couldn't handle the 26.44" scale length.

The Martin was sold and now I have a real classical guitar. No gimmicks, no electronics, just the sound I was looking for all along.

YMMV,
Dave