piezo quack

abomb4601 · #1 07-25-2008, 10:22 AM

can someone please post clips detailing what piezo quack is? i cant find anything and would like to understand it before i decide what type of pup to put in my guitar.

thanks

grace and peace

ljguitar · #2 07-25-2008, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abomb4601

can someone please post clips detailing what piezo quack is? i cant find anything and would like to understand it before i decide what type of pup to put in my guitar.

thanks

grace and peace

Hi Ab...
Piezo quack is not normally anything we'd record on purpose. It is the distortion that comes from overdriven piezo element transducers - normally from undersaddle ones.

Not a pleasant sound to my ears - in fact to be avoided at all costs...I'll see if i can stir up any YouTube examples if time opens up this afternoon. In the meantime maybe someone has some examples available.

I have no guitars with undersaddle pickups anymore to record any samples for you with either.

KMHaynes · #3 07-25-2008, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abomb4601

can someone please post clips detailing what piezo quack is? i cant find anything and would like to understand it before i decide what type of pup to put in my guitar.

Here ya' go: http://emusician.com/web_clips/rolandvg99_wc04.mp3

Pretty typical -- almost makes a steel string guitar sound like it has nylon strings.

Now here's a clip of 2 different sound-board pickups (glued inside the body to the sound board under the bridge). At the beginning of the video, it will show which guitar is using which pickup -- watch the whole clip to hear each gutiar featured so you can hear how natural sounding SBT pickups are. http://i.b5z.net/i/u/1530927/f/Tim_M...Ultra_Pure.wmv

66strummer · #4 07-25-2008, 11:44 AM

On pickups, I agree with the above. The soundboard transducers tend to sound more natural (much less quacky). They are basically picking up the guitar body (top vibration) rather than the string vibration as with an under saddle. I use B-band AST's in a few of my guitars and found them to sound the most natural of the ones in the $100 range. A lot of guys will recommend the K&K westerns too. Here is a nice comparison page. Scroll down the page to go to the mp3 files to compare brands and models....

http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptest.htm

rainsong · #5 07-25-2008, 02:53 PM

Most any Dave Matthews Live video is a pretty good representation of "Quack".

Herb Hunter · #6 07-25-2008, 02:56 PM

While I agree that under saddle pickups seem to exhibit the brittle piezoelectric sound more so than soundboard pickups made of the same material, piezoelectric tweeters and phonograph cartridges also exhibit that same objectionable sound quality.

ljguitar · #7 07-25-2008, 03:03 PM

Hi Abomb...
Here is a video which shows the piezo sound for what it is...and not as quacky as many, but the playing is low intensity and controlled.

Downtuned - click

The one undersaddle pickup which escapes a lot of ''quack'' is the Baggs LB-6, primarily because it is in reality 6 individual piezos embedded in a brass base with the ''saddle'' glued to the top. It is wider than normal and has a great full and fat sound - and can be purchased ''customized'' with a bone saddle.

I used one for 12 years, and it sounded great. I replaced it with a K&K Pure Western Mini.

guitaniac · #8 07-25-2008, 06:15 PM

Here are some simultaneous recordings made with the PUTW I/O UST and the K&K mini-Pure SBT in my spruce/mahogany Samick OM. I took the recordings into Cubase, split them up and ordered them so the UST recording is first and the SBT recording is second for each playing style. (Oops, the second-to-last pair of recordings seem to be different performances. Don't know what happened there, maybe I had to redo it.)
I/O vs mini-Pure

Even a confirmed UST lover like myself has to admit to liking the mini-Pure recordings a little better. I still prefer USTs to SBTs for live sound, however, as the UST is less prone to feedback and boominess (when the guitar top starts interacting with speaker sound) and the UST's more in-your-face sound just appeals to me more in a live situation. The mini-Pure's high end sounds distant and unfocused to me, especially when I have the gain cranked for bare-fingered picking.

I'm currently very happy with blending a Shadow SH145 humbucker mag signal with a Mi-Si UST signal for this guitar, sending the blended result thru Mama Bear. The mini-Pure system is out of service now, but still in the guitar with its jack taped against a back brace.

One of my current favorite pickups is the Graph Tech "Ghost" hex pickup system demoed in this Carvin hybrid guitar. You'll find some acoustic strumming samples in the second video and some lovely tapping (acoustic/MIDI blend) in the third video of the video series at this link.
http://www.carvinguitars.com/sh575/sh575.php

The Ghost hex system really is (as the Graph Tech folks claim) less quacky than other hex pickups and USTs, yet it lends itself very well to digital processing and/or driving a synth.

As for the links which Ken posted, the little fingerstyle thing with a VG99 doesn't sound quacky at all to me. With the video from Maury's Music, I thought Maury Rutch's mini-Pure equipped guitar actually sounded quackier than his partner's Baggs M1-equipped guitar. Go figure.

Gary

66strummer · #9 07-27-2008, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Abomb...
Here is a video which shows the piezo sound for what it is...and not as quacky as many, but the playing is low intensity and controlled.

Downtuned - click

The one undersaddle pickup which escapes a lot of ''quack'' is the Baggs LB-6, primarily because it is in reality 6 individual piezos embedded in a brass base with the ''saddle'' glued to the top. It is wider than normal and has a great full and fat sound - and can be purchased ''customized'' with a bone saddle.

I used one for 12 years, and it sounded great. I replaced it with a K&K Pure Western Mini.

__________________________________________________ ____________

Great player on that Vid Larry. And a nice recording too. There are a lot of lousy (audio) video clips on youtube. I guess I hear the quack a bit on that. I've heard a lot worse......

ljguitar · #10 07-27-2008, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 66strummer

...Great player on that Vid Larry. And a nice recording too. There are a lot of lousy (audio) video clips on youtube. I guess I hear the quack a bit on that. I've heard a lot worse......

Hi 66s...
Wonderful player and he always has great licks. The Original poster wanted to hear piezo quack, and it has quack.

If the quack was not on the original recording (no matter how well it was recorded) YouTube would not have caused it. I ran an acoustic studio for 8 years and heard plenty of ''piezo quack''.

Thankfully the new under bridgeplate pickups seem to minimize (if not eliminate it). My experiences in studio and with live play are, the louder the player (physically striking, picking or plucking the guitar with more force) the more pronounced the quack is.

66strummer · #11 07-27-2008, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi 66s...
Wonderful player and he always has great licks. The Original poster wanted to hear piezo quack, and it has quack.

If the quack was not on the original recording (no matter how well it was recorded) YouTube would not have caused it. I ran an acoustic studio for 8 years and heard plenty of ''piezo quack''.

Thankfully the new under bridgeplate pickups seem to minimize (if not eliminate it). My experiences in studio and with live play are, the louder the player (physically striking, picking or plucking the guitar with more force) the more pronounced the quack is.

__________________________________________________ ________________

Agreed on the last part Larry. A couple friends of mine play out all of the time as an acoustic duo using all kinds of effects pedals. They really hammer out songs, both playing Martins with Martin UST Pickups. And they do play very loud at times. Sometimes the peizo quack is just annoying, hearing those beautiful guitars sound so non-acoustic. 1 of these days I will get them to switch to better pickups. Old habits die hard I guess.

BTW I realized why you posted that Youtube vid. I was just making the comment that a lot of those vids have such poor sound quality to them that you dont know what you are listening to. That one was obviously done with some pretty decent recording equipment.

keyshore · #12 07-27-2008, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ljguitar

The one undersaddle pickup which escapes a lot of ''quack'' is the Baggs LB-6, primarily because it is in reality 6 individual piezos embedded in a brass base with the ''saddle'' glued to the top. It is wider than normal and has a great full and fat sound - and can be purchased ''customized'' with a bone saddle.

I second that Larry,

The LB6 bone sounds full and imparts all the nuances of the Acoustic guitar on the PA without Coloration. The Bone LB6 is best of both worlds, sound of the bone saddle when unplugged and the best possible, feed back resistant sound when plugged into the PA.

BTW Bob Collosi has discontinued the Bone LB6 for some time, although he has kindly agreed to make 2 more for me for my upcoming custom builds.

Best,

Keyshore

deltoid · #13 07-28-2008, 06:14 AM

Take a flat pick and strum the strings with the pick directly over the soundhole. Then move the pick close to the bridge, very close, as close as you can get. Then strum again, that is the best example I can think of when trying to explain what "quack' is. When stumming over the soundhole, the sound is full and glorious with lush overtones. When strumming (or picking) close to the bridge, the sound is cold, lacks sustain, more metallic sounding.

Brent Hutto · #14 07-28-2008, 06:33 AM

There's a bunch of recording Chet Atkins made during the 70's and 80's where his tone, while certainly not "quacky" per se, had that piezo quality. I have one album he did with Jerry Reed and many of those tracks are frankly unlistenable. In fact, some of Chet's stuff is like ultimate examples of great playing and great musicianship with such an awful tone that I can't get past the tone to hear the music.

Chet was no dummy when it came to technology so I must assume he actually liked that tone. It's just a hangup of mine that all I get tuned into that fakey boing boing sound and it's all I can hear.

Herb Hunter · #15 07-28-2008, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deltoid

Take a flat pick and strum the strings with the pick directly over the soundhole. Then move the pick close to the bridge, very close, as close as you can get. Then strum again, that is the best example I can think of when trying to explain what "quack' is. When stumming over the soundhole, the sound is full and glorious with lush overtones. When strumming (or picking) close to the bridge, the sound is cold, lacks sustain, more metallic sounding.

What you are describing is a change in tonal emphasis as a function of where the strings are plucked. The term, quack, is used to describe a form of distortion which produces a sound that unplugged guitars do not make no matter where one strikes the string.