So sad, open mics in my small town shut down by ASCAP licensing

[Doubleneck]

Originally Posted by upsidedown

Most of the composers being compensated (or increasingly NOT being compensated) for the use of their songs, had the luxury to play in a time when venues were not subject to ASCAP or BMI fees. Therefore, they were able to learn to play, write, compose...

Where would the Beatles - and everyone who followed - be if ASCAP/BMI were monitoring the Woolton Fete, the Kaiserkeller and the Cavern Club?

What he said, I'm retired and was just looking for a fun night, but there were a couple of young performers looking for the experience, and their world of opportunity sadly shrinks in our small town.

[AMW]

Alas, it's a thing.

For the last three years, we've had pretty regular in-store performances after hours by a lot of underground acoustic acts. A lot of American Primitive, singer/songwriter, experimental, roots and old time, modern fingerstyle, etc..

The shop kept NO money from these shows, just divided it all up between the players, and even occasionally offered a guarantee when we knew it was going to be a great night. We were happy to donate our time to collect funds, set up chairs, all that.

ASCAP started calling about a year ago, very much with a "you know what this is about" attitude. They wanted us to pay a blanket license, about $300 per year, that would supposedly cover any of their artists' rights in the event that someone decided to perform a song that they didn't own the rights to.

So... how do they know who played what song? They don't. They did expect us to send them detailed accounting of who played every show, how many people came, who was paid what and what they played... would sound doable (but unrealistic, really) if we were a proper venue, but way more of a to-do than necessary for what were essentially house shows... but how do the artists actually get paid again?

Ultimately, we surmised that ASCAP was coming after us because of Facebook events and alt-weekly listings, and we weren't going to pretend we weren't having shows... but the main reason that we didn't decide to "go legit" with them (other than the fact that we couldn't imagine a scenario where one of our tiny in-stores resulted in any payout to anybody via publishing) was that we deduced that as soon as we were on their books, BMI and every other publishing company would come calling. All of the sudden, we're looking at a hefty yearly licensing bill for something that was never intended to be a revenue stream, just a friendly place where people could play to a small, loving audience. No shortage of venues in Pittsburgh, to be sure, but there was nothing quite like AMW.

Really sorry to hear that it's even affecting open mics, arguably one of the least profitable (but most developmentally important) corners of the whole live music industry! Seems crazy!

All that said, very happy with all of the great people that played our place. Glenn Jones, Nathan Salsburg, Michael Gullezian, Andreas Kapsalis, Milo Jones, Evan Cory Levine, Sam Moss, Hoot & Holler, Ross Hammond, Daniel Bachman (x4), Devon Flaherty, Daryl Shawn, Aaron Lefebvre, Antoine Dufour, Ian Ethan Case, The Matchsellers, Corn Potato String Band, Dan Higgs, Pairdown, etc etc... wouldn't trade those nights for anything. From what I hear there's a "listening room" movement bubbling up around the country, and that might well be the future of live acoustic music, underground, anyway.

[Turp]

Too much "turf" and too many paid guardians of the turf have been created, and far too many double standards exist in society. Sometimes we are our own undoing.

While I do believe artists should get paid, I don't agree with the system and the fee rates. If fee rates were more reasonable for small venues, there would more compliance and more live entertainment.

I question if the licensing agencies care about the health and wellbeing of live music at the local level. The money they expect in fees is small beans in the eyes of the agency and the big name acts, but it's pretty big to a small business that's just trying to get by while being socially conscious to small time local performers.

[Seby]

Let no one pretend, not for even so much as a moment, that big music industry is concerned, even remotely, with the financial well being of the artists that it was been ripping off for generations. They are simply annoyed that artists and their fans are finding a way to communicate and connect without the industry acting as a middle man and taking its "cut". They are trying to protect their monopoly, and nothing else.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by DavidE

The problem is the club not paying the fees but using live music for commercial profit.

Originally Posted by DavidE

It's done by occupancy and the number of nights when live music is performed. At least that's how BMI does it.

Originally Posted by DavidE

Q: Does a business need a BMI License if they only play original music?

The term “original music” generally means musical works written by the performing musicians. That doesn’t mean, however, that the musicians are not affiliated with BMI. This is because licensing organizations like BMI are the vehicles through which songwriters and composers are compensated for the public performances of their music. In addition, one of the purposes of BMI is to help foster the development of up-and-coming songwriters, many of whom perform in public areas and establishments. Many times, these performers are asked to play a song known by the general public that was written by someone else to add to the entertainment. This performance also requires permission.

Originally Posted by DavidE

They are not "quick" to sue. Suit is filed only after extensive efforts are made to have the venue comply. Numerous letters and phone calls. In order to file suit, the licensing company pays someone to go to the club for an evening and write down every song played. The licensing agency then determines how many of the songs are covered under their agency and if none, then suit is not filed. Of course it's rare that none are played.

^^^^^ "Methinks the lad doth protest too much..." ^^^^^
- "Wild Bill" Shakespeare, paraphrased

Originally Posted by Seby

Let no one pretend, not for even so much as a moment, that the big music industry is concerned, even remotely, with the financial well being of the artists that it has been ripping off for generations. They are simply annoyed that artists and their fans are finding a way to communicate and connect without the industry acting as a middle man and taking its "cut". They are trying to protect their monopoly, and nothing else.

A big +1...

[Mandobart]

This has been happening in my area as well for at least the last 10 years. There is a lot of fiction, folklore and fantasy surrounding this subject. Gratifying to see some fact sprinkled in here in some of the replies above.

1. Myth - the PRO's (publishers right organizations, i.e., ASCAP, BMI, SESAC) are only going after venues that make or charge money for live music. Fact: - the PRO's have and will continue to shake down ANY bars, restaurants, churches, non-profits, etc. that have any music being played over a sound system. This includes playing music videos on TV.

2. Myth: if you require all performers to only play originals you're ok. Fact: two things. One is the PRO's will press hard saying "how can you prove you've NEVER had someone play something in our catalog as a request, or as recorded background music during a break, etc." I knew a venue owner who had a log kept of ALL music played in his place. ASCAP's response? "Well I guess you have nothing to worry about when we take you to court." What corner bar is gonna lawyer up against industry giants? Second thing - when a local musician plays his own songs off his last album guess what? He's probably got those tunes registered with one of the PRO's already, so legally you have to pay the fee!

3. Myth - Well at least the money paid to the PRO's goes to artists, right? Fact: after paying their admin costs, lawyer fees, etc. what little money left is allocated to artists according to RADIO AIRPLAY. That's right - if I play a tune by John Prine, Jeffery Martin, Slaid Cleaves, etc. the fee the venue pays ends up going to Beyoncé, Adele, Justin Bieber, etc.

4. Myth - don't the artists want me to cover their tunes (in my amazingly gifted unique way) to give them exposure? What do you really think? OCMS needs you to put "Wagon Wheel" out there for the three people in your town that haven't heard it yet? More importantly, the artists have no say in the matter, and the PRO's could not care less. All of us on AGF playing spirited covers of the classic tunes of the 60's, 70's and so on will do nothing to pull album sales out of the toilet. That ship has sunk a few years ago.

5. Myth - don't the PRO'S care that they're killing live music? Fact - No. Absolutely not.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by Seby

Let no one pretend, not for even so much as a moment, that big music industry is concerned, even remotely, with the financial well being of the artists that it was been ripping off for generations. They are simply annoyed that artists and their fans are finding a way to communicate and connect without the industry acting as a middle man and taking its "cut". They are trying to protect their monopoly, and nothing else.

I'm a BMI member and I'm very happy to have them looking after my interests and insuring I get paid when someone uses my music. If not for the diligence of companies like BMI, songwriters would be getting cheated left and right. My songs are my intellectual property. I'm entitled to get paid when they're played.

[6L6]

A few years back ASCAP/BMI went through San Francisco like a buzzsaw with predictable results. The once vibrant O/M scene was decimated.

When a few of the clubs went to originals only, people stopped coming because, well... most originals are way too long and not very good.

If I was an old recording artist I'd be thrilled to hear someone playing my songs. I'd hope it might inspire an unknowing young generation to go buy my Greatest Hits record. That would net me far more cash than hoping ASCAP would pay me out of Open Mic holdups.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by 6L6

If I was an old recording artist I'd be thrilled to hear someone playing my songs. I'd hope it might inspire an unknowing young generation to go buy my Greatest Hits record. That would net me far more cash than hoping ASCAP would pay me out of Open Mic holdups.

I've played a lot of open mics and I buy a lot of cds. I've never bought a cd because I heard someone do a cover at an open mic.

I think it's very easy for those who are on the fan side of the music industry to forget that there's a business side. When people say that artists should be grateful that someone is playing their songs at an open mic and shouldn't expect payment, they're minimizing the value of the songwriter's craft. And to them I say, if it's that easy to write a great song ...or even a good song... write your own. But if someone is taking the stage and the vast majority of the songs they play are covers, then that person has a spot on that stage only because of the talent of others, and those others should be compensated for their intellectual property.

[DavidE]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

^^^^^ "Methinks the lad doth protest too much..." ^^^^^
- "Wild Bill" Shakespeare, paraphrased


A big +1...

I'm not protesting. I'm educating.

Well, you can always play Imagine, I mean, it's right there in the lyrics, no possessions, everybody share everything and all. . . . .

[reidplum]

Originally Posted by Mandobart

3. Myth - Well at least the money paid to the PRO's goes to artists, right? Fact: after paying their admin costs, lawyer fees, etc. what little money left is allocated to artists according to RADIO AIRPLAY. That's right - if I play a tune by John Prine, Jeffery Martin, Slaid Cleaves, etc. the fee the venue pays ends up going to Beyoncé, Adele, Justin Bieber, etc.

Does anyone know (I mean "know" not guess or "I think") if the above is true for all three PROs? Thanks for any guidance.

Reid

Originally Posted by jim1960

I'm a BMI member and I'm very happy to have them looking after my interests and insuring I get paid when someone uses my music. If not for the diligence of companies like BMI, songwriters would be getting cheated left and right. My songs are my intellectual property. I'm entitled to get paid when they're played.

There is not an army big enough that walks this earth that would compel me to sign with any of those PROs.

I write my own music - and I copyright it. Have my own attorneys looking after my interests, and any small bar venue can hire a halfway decent attorney to countersue, with the onus on the PRO to prove that non-original music was played in the venue, not the other way around. There are organizations that will provide free legal services to defend against this predatory legal activity, and the mafia orgs that the PROs have become will cannibalize themselves out of existence soon enough.

[bajawatt]

Why can I as a teacher quote other scholars (use their intellectual property) while my school collects tuition dollars, but the scholars I discuss don't get a cut? But music works differently. I can perform someone else's ideas, just not their music. I'm intrigued by this.

Originally Posted by bajawatt

Why can I as a teacher quote other scholars (use their intellectual property) while my school collects tuition dollars, but the scholars I discuss don't get a cut? But music works differently. I can perform someone else's ideas, just not their music. I'm intrigued by this.

Or read their books in the library, or borrow out CDs and DVDs from there - but you owe nothing to the artists who made that media.