Acoustic amp vs PA system

[martingitdave]

Well truth be told, I'm not finding much online to support my statement. I'm fairly sure I read about it, but can't put my finger on it. Consider it hypothesis until I can find it, or someone else chimes in.

[Tomm Williams]

Thanks, have yet to encounter the need but good to know .

[martingitdave]

http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online...ic_guitar.html

More generalities:

"Preamps
Acoustic pickups produce a small signal that needs to be beefed up before going to a standard guitar amp. This means using a preamp. (This doesn’t apply to amps made specifically for acoustics, like the Fishman Loudbox; those amps have the necessary preamp built in.) Without the preamp, you’ll get lousy sound: very thin, with little character and volume.

The Baggs Para-Acoustic DI described above has all the bells and whistles. For a simpler solution, there is a Baggs Gigpro version. And the Fishman Infinity Matrix puts the preamp right inside your guitar body, with an endpin jack.

I hope this walk through pickup choices helps you figure out which unit will work best for you!"

[Tomm Williams]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

Well truth be told, I'm not finding much online to support my statement. I'm fairly sure I read about it, but can't put my finger on it. Consider it hypothesis until I can find it, or someone else chimes in.

I found a few articles and it seems to address issues that not all piezo's share. IME, between whatever external pre someone brings to a festival and my DI's (active and passive) I've yet to encounter a problem. The primary concern seems to be impedance mismatching but again, at least I have yet to find an issue. YMMV

[martingitdave]

Since the OP is using a mic with an active preamp unit, I suppose we can let this rest until a definitive authority on the topic weighs in. I'm still "fairly" confident that the acoustic combo amps built-in preamps adjust impedance, and some other mysterious parameters, to improve the tone of piezos.


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[jseth]

I use my two Mark Angus Anthem-equipped guitars through my AER with GREAT success... the Anthem SL is basically a Lyric combined with an Element (UST), with a crossover so the UST handles the frequencies below 180 hz, or somewhere in there... everything else is the mic portion. There is a bit of "bleed over" with frequencies captured by the UST, as there is no "hard shelf" to the crossover.

I DO have to tweak things a bit... one thing I have found is that, with my Compact 60/2, there is a small button to the right of the channel 1 gain setting... this seems to work like a "loudness control" on an older stereo receiver, where it boosts the lows and highs and scoops the mid-range drastically... with that button "in", I have NO CHANCE to get a good sound! Take it out of the equation and it's general tweaking to get a great tone.

I absolutely agree that the amp really shines at performing volumes... I can play AND sing through it and it will cut a pretty big room easily, sounding very good while doing it with excellent dispersion throughout the room...

I can attest to the fact that AER does NOT have some sort of "buffer" or modeling for piezo pickups... I had a buddy use mine for an audition when he was considering buying one... he had a Fishman w/ both a mic and a UST, and his guitar sounded like crap through my amp!

I don't think the AER is the problem for the OP, somehow it's the signal chain or one of the settings on the Lyric... I second the opinion to take everything out of the signal chain and just work with the Lyric and the AER to see if you can dial something good in with it...

The AER Compact is an incredible little amp, but it will only do what it can with what you give it...

[Br1ck]

I had an interesting experience with my Lyric and Carvin AG 300. At home I could not get the Lyric to sound very good, but cranked on a stage, it sounded great with minimal EQ. Maybe it was because the amp had to be really working doing what it was designed for in order to show the true voice of the pickup.

The Carvin really is kind of a PA in a box, being a three way with a 12" speaker and 200 watts. It comes alive when it's moving some air. Carvin also adds a 500k ohm input switch for piezos, so they do recognize the importance. I do wish it was 1Meg ohm though. My RedEye sounds better with my piezo equipped guitar into the Carvin with the switch off.

The new generation of powered speakers really blur the boundaries, as does the Carvin AG 300. Carvin has a new line array speaker coming out with the front end of their AG series amps, smearing the boundaries further.

[Monsum]

Thanks guys for your responses. I'm not going to address them now but I will let the sound speak for itself.

Here is an audio clip with 4 takes of the same chord progression. The first one is the just the guitar recorded through RodeNT1a to the audio interface.
Second one is the Lyric direct into the audio interface.

The last two are the Behringer 12inch active speaker and AER Compact 60.
But to make the test more credible I'm not going to tell you whether take3/take4 is Behringer and AER or other way round. Just pick the one you like best and post your comment.

I tried to keep all variables consistent in take 3 and 4; the same room, distance from the mic, the same settings on the Fishman preamp, the Behringer and the AER had EQ flat.

Do you think that take2 (the Lyric only) sounds good? Would you be pleased with that sound?

[musicman1951]

First let me say I don't think there is a poor sound in any of the tracks.

My preference is for the first track, but I don't suppose that's helpful. I should also say my main guitar is an electric classical so my ear tends to look for a deeper sound.

I like track 4 a little better than track 3. Words don't serve sound well, but it seems a little clearer and slightly thicker - but it's certainly not a night and day difference.

[janmulder]

It could just be that the Lyric / AER combination is not ideal. The AER does a really good job of amplifying midrange ... I'd say that's its strong point. This makes it great for amplifying instruments with a nice rich midrange sound.

The flip side is that instruments with a less than flattering midrange are often exposed by the AER.

Unfortunately, my experience with the lyric in many guitars is that it does a terrible job of reproducing the guitar's midrange sound (boxy and honky) and you have to EQ the heck out of it (with deep cuts between 400-800Hz) to make it tollerable ... but then, it's like you are just hiding the mids so they doesn't annoy as much.

In the end I never used the AER for my Lyric based guitars. My main gigging guitar now has the Anthem SL in it and this seems to work much better with the AER.

At the end of the day, you should use the setup you prefer the most regardless of whether it is using bigname electronics of not. AERs are great, but they are not for everyone and when partnered with some equipment they can sound bad.

[martingitdave]

I suspect #3 is the AER and the powered speaker is #4. I think the Lyric and the AER are not playing nicely together. I also think the Lyric needs to be adjusted, perhaps look at the seating on the bridge plate and any settings.

[Tahitijack]

I started with a SWR California Blonde but now gig with my SWR Strawberry Blonde (short/easy load-in) or Fender Acoustasonic 150 (long/difficult load-in). As you can tell amp weight is becoming a factor. The Cali was the best acoustic amp to my ears. But over time I needed to have lighter weight amps. I can see a point where I'll move to a PA system. In fact I've been looking at an old Mackie 808M power amp and C 300 passive speakers. More trips in load in but lighter weight.

[Yrksman]

I have a Lyric in my Bown OMX and I love the sound I get through my AER Compact 60/3. I prefer it to the Element and the K&K mini which I have in other guitars.

Originally Posted by Dakedi

It could just be that the Lyric / AER combination is not ideal. The AER does a really good job of amplifying midrange ... I'd say that's its strong point. This makes it great for amplifying instruments with a nice rich midrange sound.

The flip side is that instruments with a less than flattering midrange are often exposed by the AER.

Unfortunately, my experience with the lyric in many guitars is that it does a terrible job of reproducing the guitar's midrange sound (boxy and honky) and you have to EQ the heck out of it (with deep cuts between 400-800Hz) to make it tollerable ... but then, it's like you are just hiding the mids so they doesn't annoy as much.

In the end I never used the AER for my Lyric based guitars. My main gigging guitar now has the Anthem SL in it and this seems to work much better with the AER.

At the end of the day, you should use the setup you prefer the most regardless of whether it is using bigname electronics of not. AERs are great, but they are not for everyone and when partnered with some equipment they can sound bad.

[Irish Pennant]

Originally Posted by Tomm Williams

The Genz Benz Shenandoah 100 features two seperate channels with seperate or combined line outs, 3 band EQ(sweepable mids both channels), digital FX, both 1/4" or XLR I/O, FX loop and is pole mountable and more than powerful enough for any gig where you would be restricted to a single box. None of the speakers mentioned offer that level of flexibility and I can't think of any $100 mixers that have 4 band EQ. They are not at all hard to find under $350.

As I've never A/B'd that unit against the ones mention, it would be out of line for me to state with total conviction that the GB sounds better. I can state that the GB is one of those products that immediately shows its quality as soon as you play through it. Like many folks here, I've had the opportunity to listen to many high quality amps through the years and IMO, the GB holds it's own very well. Probably why the Eagles used them for their acoustics on numerous tours.

I have a Genz Benz Shenandoah 85 (very similar to the 100) and a mixer/power pa. My preference is for the mixer. My mixer is not a $100.00 mixer though.

To get the GB to achieve a sound that I like, I have to use the pole mount. Having the speaker 5'-6' in the air makes a huge difference in tone. But then the control knobs are now 7' in the air and the speaker is in my face when I'm trying to eq it.