The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 03-26-2013, 07:13 AM
guitarjamman guitarjamman is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 198
Default Standard vs. Alternate Tunings

Please be cognizant of the fact that this is all my own personal opinion, it is not meant to offend anyone – just merely an observation that I have made after some years under my belt of guitar playing.

That being said, I saw Andy McKee play live the other night and was completely blown away by both his accuracy and precision in his fingerings, but more importantly, by his ability to make some of the most melodic fills and flowing compositions. His songs have a certain continuity to them, there are no “hiccups” in his flow and each segmented run flows into the next measure without having to kill a ringing string. To me, the ability to have ringing notes can keep a feel going while changing fingerings to play the next melody – when I am playing and want to move up the neck to play a little run, I have a difficult time keeping the strings ringing, mostly due to planting a new chord shape that immediately kills and resonance. If playing a head bopping tune, I can incorporate those “stops” into a beat so the audience does not catch it, but when trying to play a soothing tune, those stops have the ability to kill the ambience.

When I look at a player like Tommy Emmanuel, I see some serious talent. A lot of his songs are very beat driven and he plays MOSTLY in standard tuning. He has a few songs that go towards open G and drop D, but from interviews I have read and songs I have learnt, he tends to stick with the basic standard tuning. When watching Andy McKee, he was constantly changing tunings after every song, sometimes really switching it up – when watching his fingerings, none of them seemed to apply to anything that would resemble a standard tuning. Now maybe I could answer my own question by learning to play in an alternate tuning, but I feel like there is still WAY too much to learn in standard to go fooling around; but does an alternate tuning help keep the ambience? It seems Andy does not need to pick up his whole hand and move it to keep the melody in tune with the progression, there are no full barres on the neck that would kill and resonant/drone strings. Tommy often barres a whole fret and uses his remaining fingers to keep a melody grooving along, same with Chet Atkins and it appears everyone who plays in a standard. While when watching folks like Antoine Dufour and other “Candy Rat” guitarists who compose in alternate tunings, they are able to minimize their fingerings while maintaining ambient grooves.

I do not have a large enough grasp on the guitar to really understand how tunings can affect composition, but I have some empirical evidence to help me get along. Also, when Andy would go to an alternate tuning to compose a song, is there a lot of theory backing up his composing, or is alternate tuning a lot of trial and error to get a great sound?

Last edited by RP; 03-26-2013 at 08:29 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-26-2013, 08:24 AM
usb_chord's Avatar
usb_chord usb_chord is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,627
Default

1.) Alternate tunings can make for more convenient fingerings and access to melodic lines or harmonies that could be difficult or impossible in standard tuning.

2.) Composing on the guitar often involves quite a bit of ingenuity to compensate for some of its limitations (notes decay quickly, some fingerings are difficult, ect). Different musicians approach those challenges in various ways. Depending on your interests, each solution has its limitations. You just have to figure out what you're willing to potentially "compromise" on.

3.) Andy's style of playing allows him to feel comfortable tuning his guitar to open and alternate tunings. One of the many strengths of his approach is it allows him to easily incorporate exotic intervals into his playing with lots of sustain and power. A weakness could be that he doesn't know any specific tuning well enough to play anything you could imagine in it like Pierre Bensusan (and Tommy Emmanuel) for instance. Like Tommy, Pierre plays almost exclusively in one tuning, DADGAD. He can play in any key with this tuning, improvise over anything and pretty much evoke the harmonic and melodic stylings of any musician he cares to This also allows him to take existing tunes in many different directions, in the moment.

Pierre and Tommy can also translate virtually anything they hear to guitar (again) in the moment, pretty much the first time they hear it. Andy - by his own admission - cannot do this, nor does he care or need to. The question is this: What do you aspire to accomplish on the guitar and what are the tools you need to accomplish it? The answers to this question are different for everyone. The paths may be different but the end goal is always the same: Good music.

Last edited by usb_chord; 03-26-2013 at 08:32 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-26-2013, 10:20 AM
ljguitar's Avatar
ljguitar ljguitar is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: wyoming
Posts: 42,556
Default

Hi g-jamman...

There are really great intuitive players, and great players who devise their arrangements carefully. There are those who combine the two in amazing ways. Some only play, and some play and sing.

One of the limitations of early/young DADGAD players is similar to early/young pentatonic lead players. Lack of variety. They get focused/stuck on a few 'trick-licks' that are fun to play, fairly acrobatic and impressive the first time you hear it. Not so innovative from the audience perspective the 10th time in 2 songs we see/hear it.

Players who stand out are those who learn to build a library of runs, licks, techniques which are pleasing to the ear of both player and listener, and escape mere acrobatics.

Tommy Emmanuel's or Phil Keaggy's incredible never ending lightning fast runs would be far less pleasing if they were not so rooted in the chord progressions they are tied to. Both always stay in key, and the runs start and end in the right places at the right time.

Laurence Juber is a great example of an instrumentalist who uses tunings to capture the 'mood' of a transcribed piece. His Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring was learned and experimented with in several tunings before he landed on the one which fit the fingerings best and permitted the lowest bass note possible for portions of the arrangement. He is very calculating in his tunings...

Other great players just 'let-er-fly' and play the tuning as it lies, and seemingly get very lucky...which I think is really more of an intuitive sense they are using than raw luck (or else they get lucky a lot).

The key for all the best ''successful'' players is they push through till their playing is beyond average. They harness their tunings and extract more from them than other players.

This includes vocalist-players like David Wilcox who lives in altered tunings. The last time I saw a Wilcox concert, he went through about a dozen tunings in the concert. I have his alternate tuning and arranging video, and have attended a seminar of his on altered tunings and song arranging.

The man has tied playing in alternate tunings together systematically, and has musical, song arranging and lyric writing skills that won't quit! The funny thing is when you listen to David Wilcox play/sing you don't realize it's altered tunings. His songs sound very conventional musically.

Hope this adds to the discussion...


__________________

Baby #1.1
Baby #1.2
Baby #02
Baby #03
Baby #04
Baby #05

Larry's songs...

…Just because you've argued someone into silence doesn't mean you have convinced them…
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-26-2013, 10:21 AM
kmcmichael kmcmichael is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Irving, Texas
Posts: 398
Default

A factor so far overlooked...open tunings are fun!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-26-2013, 10:30 AM
jpd jpd is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: California
Posts: 11,280
Wink

Great post and even greater responses. J.D.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-26-2013, 10:56 AM
Larry Pattis's Avatar
Larry Pattis Larry Pattis is offline
Humanist
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Oregon
Posts: 11,947
Default

A tuning is just a tuning...it is not the music.

The guitar's tuning should be transparent to the listener. I have heard Pierre Bensusan play in just about every "stye of sound/genre" proving this can be done...from wild lead-guitar to Country Western...not just his usual world-music (or earlier Celtic) sounds....all in DADGAD.

Likewise, I have also heard standard tuning used to produce music often associated with arpeggiated/notes-ringing open-tunings. Pierre himself composed the piece "Altiplanos" in standard tuning...no need to touch the guitar for him to do this.

The only rule here is that the musician controls what the instrument produces, regardless of tuning.

Notes that ring-out appropriately are great, if they are used in the correct musical fashion, to complement the music itself. The greatest amount of musicality is demonstrated, in the OP's example, by the musician absolutely controlling which notes continue, and which do not.

"Killing the ambience" only relates to what the musician can (or cannot) do with his/her instrument.

Musicality should always triumph the choice of tuning.

The point is that a great musician that chooses the guitar (or a guitarist that develops into a great musician) as his/her instrument needs to expand their capabilities in using the instrument so that the tuning is irrelevant. This requires an enormous amount of work, regardless of the talent of the artist.
__________________
Larry Pattis on Spotify and Pandora
LarryPattis.com
American Guitar Masters
100 Greatest Acoustic Guitarists

Steel-string guitars by Rebecca Urlacher and Simon Fay
Classical guitars by Anders Sterner

Last edited by Larry Pattis; 03-26-2013 at 11:39 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-26-2013, 02:47 PM
zmf zmf is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 7,671
Default

Good thread. I am appreciating hearing these opinions.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-26-2013, 03:12 PM
Claytone Claytone is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Jacksonville Arkansas
Posts: 1,513
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zmf View Post
Good thread. I am appreciating hearing these opinions.
The timeing of this thread is wonderful for me...I just ordered a couple of spider capos from Macnichols to experiment with... I guess I'm just too lazy to twist the tuning knobs eh?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-26-2013, 03:50 PM
geordie geordie is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: this side of heaven
Posts: 2,604
Default

I posted this on 'Celtic Guitar Talk' a few years ago, it may be relevant here.

An alternative approach
Fitting a tune to a tuning, be it “Standard” or DADGAD etc. can often sound forced or unnatural or incomplete with unsatisfying results -
Or coming up with a system of intervals (tuning) in empathy and to enhance the piece.
I only play in what's called alternative tunings, around a dozen I regularly use from around fifty I've developed / discovered / modified.
The STANDARD way of tuning a guitar (EADGBE)was developed from the lute (EADF#BE), the lute tuning system was developed and “standardised” for use in early “classical” music where there is a need to be Poly-modulus – have the capability to play in many or all the key signatures in “western” music.
Hence the thousands of chords and predicament of where in this "do everything - anywhere" tuning system = it can be limiting in other ways.
Having a melody and “arranging” it to be played with different instruments and in different Key signatures became high fashion and composers got very clever with this stylistic effect, the fallout of this is we have an instrument with a tuning system that was developed for a style of music that many / most people don't need or play.
What to do about this.?
OK, here's what I do when making (writing) and “placing” a piece of music on the guitar.
1} Come up with a melody – this might mean adjusting the intervals between the strings the melody is on. This may suggest a “tuning” for step {2}
2} Decide where i'm going to play the melodic line, which strings and where on the f/board.
3} Start to figure out what harmonies / suite the melody (mood), these can be simple open -ringing strings and retune these strings to “fall in” with what you require and what's doable.
4} Work out bass / drone / pedal notes and retune as step {3}
Steps 2 / 3 don't always HAVE to be played together or separately, it's what “fits” the overall mood and feel of what you want the effect of the piece to be.
5} Work at bringing it all together. This can come together almost by it's self, more so with experience of working this way or it may require “moving” the whole tuning towards the treble side or toward the bass, the simplest example to explain this is to think of a tune you might play in Open D but the fingering / intervals available don't give you enough bass so you would “move” the intervalic relationship toward the treble side, the fingering / chord shapes remain the same only one string over and it gives an extra bass note to work with, I did this with “Sovay's Tune” I play on youtube.
This problem / puzzle solving can be the most rewarding when you have successfully arranged a tune and had to develop a tuning to “set” the piece in.
This approach has been adopted by many seminal fingerpickers and has created a great diversity of individual styles not possible in standard tuning
Geordie
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-26-2013, 03:54 PM
JoeCharter JoeCharter is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,549
Default

Think less, play more.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-26-2013, 04:09 PM
Bern's Avatar
Bern Bern is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: New York
Posts: 10,748
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Pattis View Post

Musicality should always triumph the choice of tuning.
I like that and agree...
__________________
There are still so many beautiful things to be said in C major...
Sergei Prokofiev
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-26-2013, 04:27 PM
geordie geordie is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: this side of heaven
Posts: 2,604
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ljguitar View Post
Hi g-jamman...
Laurence Juber is a great example of an instrumentalist who uses tunings to capture the 'mood' of a transcribed piece. His Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring was learned and experimented with in several tunings before he landed on the one which fit the fingerings best and permitted the lowest bass note possible for portions of the arrangement. He is very calculating in his tunings...
Ah a thinking musician
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-26-2013, 04:32 PM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 10,188
Default

Personally, I couldn't care less what tuning a player is in as long as they are making good music.

That said, I'd also rather listen tk someone who knows a tuning well enough that they can play whatever they need to in it and improvise.
__________________
Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:

http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-26-2013, 05:52 PM
rick-slo's Avatar
rick-slo rick-slo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 17,170
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarjamman View Post
I do not have a large enough grasp on the guitar to really understand how tunings can affect composition, but I have some empirical evidence to help me get along. Also, when Andy would go to an alternate tuning to compose a song, is there a lot of theory backing up his composing, or is alternate tuning a lot of trial and error to get a great sound?
I think you picked up on some aspects of various tunings pretty well.
In open tunings and modal tunings there are more opportunities to incorporate open notes, and often too the fretted notes tend to linger in what are usually less complex chord progressions (not counting chord extensions). So everything tends to flow together. Personally I gravitate to more compositional tensions and resolutions.

Composing wise when you hang out in a certain tuning you become aware of the chord shapes, otherwise you are hunting for intervals.
This may influence the process.

You can be in a tuning and compose around it. With a good mental ear and openess to try things you can conceive a tune first and then come up with a tuning that fits it to best advantage.

One thing about switching around in a bunch of different tunings is that it can get pretty difficult remembering how to play your tunes in the tunings you do not visit much.
__________________
Derek Coombs
Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs
Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs

"Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love
To be that we hold so dear
A voice from heavens above
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-26-2013, 06:33 PM
donh donh is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,412
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeCharter View Post
Think less, play more.
:-)

I am done with teachers at this point, finding that so many of them spent more time limiting me by telling me what I *had* to do or what I *shouldn't* do or how things *have* to be played. Good teachers open doors rather than close them.

When I walked away from standard tuning for a while I found I could go chasing how to play things musically and with fun - I had also walked away from the crappy-teacher limitations.

Last Sunday evening I played all night in standard and had a ball. First time I'd done that in about a year - strange the paths we take, eh? Open tunings open doors for me, your mileage may vary.
__________________
-donh-

*everything* is a tone control
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=