Vintage parlor identification help

[estebe]

Long time lurker, first time poster here...

It would be really great if someone could help me narrow down the identity of my guitar... I have bought it in Europe from a lady that said she had it from Germany (both Arthur Robb and Stephen Chipman confirmed it looks European, so at least that`s a start). The guitar is in rough condition and I was wondering if it`s worth saving or is it just a wall decoration..Any insight appreciated!

Thank you!
BTW. This is a cross-post from the gearpage...



More photos here: http://s1129.photobucket.com/user/es...?sort=3&page=1

[The Bard Rocks]

My guess is that it is German-made. But by who? Anyone's guess. You see these things around now and then and they are always pretty. I don't have enough information or enough pictures to try to tell you if it is worth saving or is just a conversation piece, a wall-hanger.

I'd look at the neck to see how straight it is, examine it for cracks and loose braces, look closely at the bridge to see if it is fastened on tightly, look for a bellying of the top below the bridge, and check out the tuners if you can without stringing it up. If these things do not prove to be issues, it is probably a worthy project. If not, then you have to think harder and longer. Take it to a reputable technician or luthier and see what they have to say.

[sweiss]

Photobucket sez: "Sorry, the requested page does not exist.

Please check the URL for correct spelling and capitalization."

Oops...nevermind. I can see it now.

It obviously needs a fret job, and with a neck reset you might in deeper than it's worth. But I could very well be wrong. I don't know much about European guitars.

[Toby Walker]

Ask Steve Chipman - he's one of AGF's sponsors
http://vintageparlorguitars.com/

Or you could try Neil Harpe.
http://www.stellaguitars.com/

[estebe]

Thank you for the quick replies. I have already contacted Steve Chipman btw, no luck except that is European made...


The ok part:
bridge holds on, no need to mess with it,
neck (checked against a straightedge , looks fairly straight)

The not so good:
new frets, nut, bridge pins and one crack on the back of the guitar, the rest is cosmetic..

Would you have an idea if it`s early or mid century made?

[PTC Bernie]

First, welcome to AGF! May this be the first of many posts.

It looks pretty old, and, sadly, not in great shape. Is the bent fret for intonation?

Is the soundhole piece removable to see if thee are any markings in the body of the guitar?

[estebe]

I never in my life seen frets like these. I took the strings off and they simply fell off... the sound hole piece is non removable.

[sweiss]

Originally Posted by estebe

.....neck (checked against a straightedge , looks fairly straight).....

Ok...the neck is straight...that's good...but how about the neck angle?

These old guitars, almost invariably, fold in on themselves over the years, causing the neck angle to be out of whack with the body.

[estebe]

Looks ok, I will have to take it to a luthier for a proper evaluation tho. However, a few questions:
1. Would anyone have an educated guess about the age? Early, mid 20th century?
2. It came with steel strings but was it meant to handle these?

Thank you

[Hierophant]

Looks indeed German or Austrian, maybe around 1910. If you can't determine the builder, they usually sell for around 100 to 200 EUR (150 to 250 USD) here.

[estebe]

Great, thank you for your reply. So start of the century you say... I`m not looking to sell I want to fix her up. It only cost me the equivalent of 20 USD, but wanted to get an idea of what I have bought.
Thank you, if anyone else want to chime in please do!

The string question steel puzzles me though...was it meant for steel strings? How can i determine if it was for gut strings or steel? Would 1910 guitars have steel strings?

[Hierophant]

Although it has bridgepins, these guitars are made for nylon strings.

[Wade Hampton]

Actually, given the apparent age of the guitar, it was almost certainly intended for gut strings, not nylon or steel. Nylon strings will work just fine on it, of course, but using steel strings would be taking an unnecessary risk.

Because most steel string acoustic guitars have had pinned bridges for about the last hundred years or so, most modern guitarists assume that whenever they see a pinned bridge the guitar is meant for steel strings. But you were correct to question that, Estebe.

The system of bridge pins and pinned bridges that we use on steel string guitars these days was actually developed for gut strings. The normal practice was to tie a knot at the end of the string and hold it in place with the pin.

I'm not anything even remotely close to an expert on German and European-made guitars from the 19th Century; I'm barely conversant in the subject, in fact. But there was a great upswelling of interest in a mythical past during the decades of the Romantic movement, and a great many lute-guitars were bought and sold. (And still are in Germany, to a limited degree.)

Relatively recent German-made lute-guitar - note the metal frets and geared metal tuners.

This guitar of yours, with its carved rosette, might be from this same movement.

So I think it's probably around a hundred years old, give or take a decade or two. As for whether a full restoration is possible, that's something an experienced repair tech would need to determine. But my guess is that even if it is possible, it would cost more than the guitar would be worth, either in terms of its monetary or its musical value.

So my suggestion would be to clean it up, restring it and leave it alone, perhaps use it as a wall-hanger if that's your preference.

Hope this helps.


Wade Hampton Miller

[estebe]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

Actually, given the apparent age of the guitar, it was almost certainly intended for gut strings, not nylon or steel. Nylon strings will work just fine on it, of course, but using steel strings would be taking an unnecessary risk.

Because most steel string acoustic guitars have had pinned bridges for about the last hundred years or so, most modern guitarists assume that whenever they see a pinned bridge the guitar is meant for steel strings. But you were correct to question that, Estebe.

The system of bridge pins and pinned bridges that we use on steel string guitars these days was actually developed for gut strings. The normal practice was to tie a knot at the end of the string and hold it in place with the pin.

I'm not anything even remotely close to an expert on German and European-made guitars from the 19th Century; I'm barely conversant in the subject, in fact. But there was a great upswelling of interest in a mythical past during the decades of the Romantic movement, and a great many lute-guitars were bought and sold. (And still are in Germany, to a limited degree.)

Relatively recent German-made lute-guitar - note the metal frets and geared metal tuners.

This guitar of yours, with its carved rosette, might be from this same movement.

So I think it's probably around a hundred years old, give or take a decade or two. As for whether a full restoration is possible, that's something an experienced repair tech would need to determine. But my guess is that even if it is possible, it would cost more than the guitar would be worth, either in terms of its monetary or its musical value.

So my suggestion would be to clean it up, restring it and leave it alone, perhaps use it as a wall-hanger if that's your preference.

Hope this helps.


Wade Hampton Miller

Well, first of all thank you very much for the detailed answer. I have a question though: I was wondering what made you say that ,,it would cost more than the guitar would be worth, either in terms of its monetary or its musical value". Don`t get me wrong, I`m not disputing the statement I just want to better understand. Is is a low/mid range guitar? If so what features make it so? Basically that`s the crux of the problem for me...what is/was this guitar? A low/mid level common instrument or was it something more fancy? What makes is either of the two?Thank you!

[Wade Hampton]

Originally Posted by estebe

I was wondering what made you say that ,,it would cost more than the guitar would be worth, either in terms of its monetary or its musical value". Don`t get me wrong, I`m not disputing the statement I just want to better understand. Is is a low/mid range guitar? If so what features make it so? Basically that`s the crux of the problem for me...what is/was this guitar? A low/mid level common instrument or was it something more fancy? What makes is either of the two?Thank you!

Estebe, it appears that that instrument was a nice quality instrument in its day. But it's clearly in pretty rough shape, probably due to decades of neglect.

I'm not a guitar repairman, so any guesses that I make regarding what it would take to restore it are going to be just that, guesses. But here's what I know: 19th Century and early 20th Century guitars, which is what we presume this is, are actually not at all rare. There are a lot of them floating around in the used & vintage guitar market.

One of the reasons so many of them are available is that they're generally not sought after as players' instruments. You might be surprised at how inexpensive even Martin guitars from that era can be, but it's for the same reasons: there are a lot of them around but very few people play them nowadays.

Guitar design has evolved considerably in the last hundred years. There's a huge amount of player and collector interest in guitars from the 1920's, 30's and 40's, but not in guitars from the decades preceding those years.

It could be that my very limited appraisal based on that one photo is incorrect, and that for a few hundred dollars you can get that guitar fully functional. If that's the case, I'd encourage you to do so.

But if the guitar needs a neck reset, which it probably does, then you'll be getting into some very serious money. Which I, personally, would be reluctant to spend based on what I've seen in that photo.

But I could be completely wrong on this, which is why you should take the guitar to an experienced professional guitar repair tech, so he or she can take measurements and look at it with a cool, unbiased professional eye.

If the guitar only needs to be refretted and restrung and maybe have a brace or two clamped in place, by all means get that done. Otherwise, proceed cautiously.

It may be worth a thousand dollars to you to get that guitar restored to its full functional glory. But it wouldn't be worth that to me.

Hope that makes more sense than my first post.


Wade Hampton Miller