Considering trading in my Martin 6er towards a Taylor

[broken thumb]

I took my 314ce to a bluegrass/folk jam. It didn't have the volume to carry a lead, to me, over all the fiddles and banjos and mandolins. The D35 did.

Make of that what you will. The 814ce may well be a louder instrument than my 314ce. But I love having both the D35 and the 314ce. I do fingerstyle on both, but more fingerstyle/less strumming on the 314ce, while I do less fingerstyle/more strumming and flatpicking on the D35.

The Takamine gets used mostly for odd tunings, and for teaching. I love it, but new dings on the other two cause me more heartburn.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

Hi Dave,

I would miss having a dreadnought if I didn't have one, but that's just me, my particular tastes, and my not having problems with the dreadnought size. I also am a longtime D-35 owner, as I have a 1967 D-35. But I also have many other 6-strings of different sizes and designs and I also own a Guild F212 12-string.

I looked up the Martin CS35-11 because I didn't know what it was. It has scalloped 1/4" red spruce top bracing, hide glue construction, Madagascar rosewood back and sides, and Carpathian spruce top. These things sell for about $5K.http://willcuttguitars.com/martin-gu...r-rosewood-780 Here is a decent review: http://acousticletter.com/martin-cs-...does-it-sound/


I think the Taylor 814CE is a good guitar, particularly the newest version. But unless you are having shoulder issues with the dreadnought, I don't think that the 814CE will give you anything that the CS35-11 doesn't already provide. Well, correction -- the Taylor 814CE with the new ES2 system provides you with a good, built-in pickup system and you will need to add a pickup to a Martin if you want one. I took the pickup out of my D-35 a few years ago.

I see the D-35 from Martin as being very Taylor-like (good treble, for example) except that it usually has more bass, which I also like. I am mostly a finger picker and a folk singer, a singer-songwriter, and I'm not much of a flat picker, though sometimes I use a flat pick. To me, the D-35, because of it's light top bracing, is a very good finger picker, and that's why I picked mine out back in the spring of 1969.

As long as the dreadnought size is not causing you shoulder issues, I think you already have what you need for finger picking and folk singing. Well, it's all I needed for the 40+ years when I used mine for exactly that.

Just my 2 cents...

- Glenn

Glen, your comments are most helpful, as usual. Thanks for the insight. Thanks to the others who have offered their thoughts as well. I will add a bit of a wrinkle to this, to consider. The 814CE I am considering is a special edition with a unique set of tone woods. As such, I would be technically "upgrading" in that sense, as I managed a very good price for the Martin. But, the more I reflect on everyone's comments, the more I am encouraged to keep the Martin. As Glen points out, it is a very lightly braced instrument with fine tone woods. So, I have never been "deprived" in the tone category. So, perhaps it is as simple as setting the guitar up for lower action and lighter strings. I have a K&K pickup in it for open stages and listening rooms, and it is good enough in that regard.

Best,

David

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by broken thumb

I took my 314ce to a bluegrass/folk jam. It didn't have the volume to carry a lead, to me, over all the fiddles and banjos and mandolins. The D35 did.

Make of that what you will. The 814ce may well be a louder instrument than my 314ce. But I love having both the D35 and the 314ce. I do fingerstyle on both, but more fingerstyle/less strumming on the 314ce, while I do less fingerstyle/more strumming and flatpicking on the D35.

The Takamine gets used mostly for odd tunings, and for teaching. I love it, but new dings on the other two cause me more heartburn.

That is helpful insight. Our folk/bluegrass jams get pretty loud. At present, I am able to cut through. I hadn't considered not having the volume with a Taylor. As you say, perhaps the 814 is louder?

[220volt]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

The 814CE I am considering is a special edition with a unique set of tone woods. As such, I would be technically "upgrading" in that sense, as I managed a very good price for the Martin.
David

I don't think it would be an upgrade. Your Martin is a high end custom shop. To get equivalent or higher from Taylor you would have to go with R Taylor which doesn't exist anymore.

However, your guitar is definitely not a finger picker with 1 11/16 nut and dread body. But man, the specs on that thing are just monster. I would definitely keep it.

[Tony Burns]

Actually depending on the person , dreads can be great fingerstyle guitars -
But it does depend on how many hours you play on any particular instrument as to your comfort level with it . Seriously when i say this -i love any great sounding guitar reguardless of how wide or the scale of the fingerboard -

Confusing isnt it !

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by 220volt

I don't think it would be an upgrade. Your Martin is a high end custom shop. To get equivalent or higher from Taylor you would have to go with R Taylor which doesn't exist anymore.

However, your guitar is definitely not a finger picker with 1 11/16 nut and dread body. But man, the specs on that thing are just monster. I would definitely keep it.

Good points. One of the things I love about my Martin is how near perfectly intonated it seems. The 12 string is more difficult to judge, but also seems very good. That's a custom shop intangible that I managed to ignore. I am sure there are others as well. And, I suppose there is some irony regarding the "need" to have another/different fine instrument to play folk music. I may have been getting carried away with my new found appreciation for Taylor guitars. They are great. And, maybe I will try and find a used 414ce to fingerpick with one day. In the meantime, I think Glen has convinced me that if a D35 was good enough for him for 40 years of folk music, it's good enough for me. Better musicians than I have made more beautiful folk music on much "lesser" instruments than I am currently fortunate to have.

[Coach Jim]

Martin Dreds are setup with slightly higher action for Bluegrass. As others have said, get it set up for fingerstyle snd possibly use lighter strings. I have fingerpicked a D-18 for 46 years with mediums strings. Now that I am older I do appreciate my OM -28 Retro, especially for Oprn Mics but it can not replace my D-18. Your guitar is Madi which will be hard to replace in the future. Best to keep it. IMO.

[SuperB23]

I too was impressed with the new 8 series Taylors that I've played but it would be worth it to put a fresh set of strings on it and bring in your killer custom shop Martin in and compare it to one of those new Taylors. Sometimes when you in a shop a guitar will sound great but then you realize one you have at home still sounds a lot better.

I haven't played the CS-35-11 but I have played the CS-21-11 and I remember what killer dreadnoughts they are. Good luck in your decision.

[Glennwillow]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

... So, perhaps it is as simple as setting the guitar up for lower action and lighter strings. ...

Hi Dave,

This is a very interesting point. I did both of these things -- that is, have a really good technician lower the action and I started using light gauge strings -- on my 1967 D-35 some years ago and both made a big difference. I use either D'Addario EJ16 or John Pearse PB light on my old D-35 and they sound really good.

Originally Posted by 220volt

... However, your guitar is definitely not a finger picker with 1 11/16 nut and dread body. But man, the specs on that thing are just monster. I would definitely keep it.

I have a great deal of respect for 220volt's opinion and playing ability, but whether your (Dave's) CS35-11 is a good finger picker depends on your particular hands and fingers. I wear large size gloves but my fingers are fairly slender, and for me, the 1 11/16" nut width on my old D-35 is ideal for finger picking. So it really depends on the player. I love finger picking my old D-35 and it sounds great! I bet yours sounds great, too, but I'd lose the medium strings and adjust the action for finger picking. It would still work for Bluegrass jams assuming you lighten up on your flat picking attack.

- Glenn

[martingitdave]

Thanks again. I put two different brands of light strings on tonight. So far, all I can hear is the missing bottom end and high end. Might need to try a few different sets to find one I like. I am going to try them for a week and take it to a good shop for a setup, if I like them. Oh dear. It's just a wooden box with strings. Shouldn't be this complicated... ;-) I'll check back with everyone and let you know how it goes. And, I won't let tonight's string experiment discourage me too much. Its amazing how accustomed to a specific sound we can become. Probably all the more reason not to mess with a different guitar.

[220volt]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

I have a great deal of respect for 220volt's opinion and playing ability, but whether your (Dave's) CS35-11 is a good finger picker depends on your particular hands and fingers. I wear large size gloves but my fingers are fairly slender, and for me, the 1 11/16" nut width on my old D-35 is ideal for finger picking. So it really depends on the player. I love finger picking my old D-35 and it sounds great! I bet yours sounds great, too, but I'd lose the medium strings and adjust the action for finger picking. It would still work for Bluegrass jams assuming you lighten up on your flat picking attack.

- Glenn

Well, what I've should have said is "your guitar is definitely not a finger picker for my own playing style"
I mean I can certainly fingerpick on 1 11/16, and probably adapt for good if I really put in lot of time, but If I had to choose it would be 1 3/4 or wider for sure. Much more real estate, why fight it?

But I agree, mediums definitely have to go. You have to have a hulk-like fingers to get decent sound out those with your bare fingers.
One big reason I don't fingerpick on dreads is that the bass and lower mids are so loud and big, they overpower higher notes, which is where melody lives. It just drowns it, so I really have to be aware of those things while I play to get a decent melody going under all that bass. Again, we can all probably adopt but I decided to go with the route of least resistance and get a fingerpicker and keep the dread for Tony Rice licks

[martingitdave]

Nice explanation 220volt. I intend to listen to some of your youtube recordings. You have me intrigued. Cheers

[220volt]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

Nice explanation 220volt. I intend to listen to some of your youtube recordings. You have me intrigued. Cheers

Thanks

Just remember that regardless what decision you make now, you might regret it later. Especially if you really love the tone of that Martin now. Manager of the Guitar Center here told me that he kept all of his guitars since the day one, because he has a hard time letting them go out of fear that he will regret it later on in his life. He owns about 37 now

[martingitdave]

Good morning friends. I wanted to share with you the conclusion of this thread. After all of your advice, I decided that I would, in fact, keep the dread and continue to love it. I put light strings on it and began talking with a local luthier about having the setup changed. Unfortunately, without major surgery, they would not be able to lower the action much more. That was acceptable, so I decided to forgo any changes. Then..... (Dramatic pause)

I got a call back from the speciality shop that had sold me the Martin. I had already inquired about their appetite for a trade or swap for a Taylor before I started this thread. Now, they had a buyer who was interested in my guitar. "Ho hum" I thought. I had decided to keep it. But, he pressed. If I were to sell the guitar they would offer me much more than I paid for it. "Nah", I thought. But wait, there's more, (he was a salesman). He had just received a Taylor 814ce with upgraded appointments and Brazilian rosewood. He would make me an offer I couldn't refuse. He had my attention. So, I went and played it. A few hours later, the deal was done. My justification was that I could always find a Martin dread in the future should I want one. The same can be said about the Taylor (more so, in fact.)

Perhaps flawed logic, but I am being honest with you all. I really liked the Martin, but I didn't have any emotional attachment to it. The only guitar I had an attachment to was my Larrivee dread, which was the first solid spruce / rosewood guitar I ever played. I bought it with my first paychecks after college to play Irish music with a few groups. It subsequently split multiple places after a long hiatus, was repaired, but never played or sounded the same. I learned about the importance of humidity. Eventually, it made way for my first Martin, which made way for this Martin.

10 Thoughts from the following day. Again, I'm sharing honest thoughts, in case this helps others who read this in the future.

1. I really love the new instrument. The tone is balanced and clear as a bell. My medium(ish) hands are much more comfortable on the Taylor neck. Especially the limited thickness. Less left thumb pain.
2. I also miss the bottom end of the Martin. We shall see if that regret fades over time. I was sufficiently warned, and modestly prepared for this.
3. There is no single perfect guitar for all playing styles. I ended up going the comfort first route, but I am attempting to have my cake and eat it too.
4. I think I have been motivated by my 40th birthday coming up in a few days. 40 seems to be a very difficult birthday for me, and I've been resorting to "retail" therapy. Time to get that in check.
5. Need to explore different strings. My favorite lightweight poly foam guitar case actually fits the new guitar better! Need a new capo. Any one interested in a good deal for an Elliot Elite for 1-11/16" necks?
6. Madi and Brazilian rosewood are similar in tone with a slight edge given to Brazilian. The difference between either tonewood and Indian rosewood is in the overtones and shimmer. Indian is also very lovely. Some don't like the added "color." As a singer, I do.
7. I'm lucky to have a supportive wife. Albeit one who implored me to keep only two guitars. She's right though. I probably don't have time for two.
8. I am fortunate to have the means to entertain the thought of acquiring such a nice instrument. (I mean to convey that I recognize I am fortunate, and don't take it for granted.)
9. I appreciate everyone's insight and willingness to share and care. I am a little embarrassed not to heed Glen's advice after he and others were so gracious with their time. But, that doesn't mean I don't value your opinions.
10. Time will tell if I made the right decision. But, for now, it is done and I am moving on. Time to stop typing, and start making music befitting the level of effort this represents.

Thanks All!

[j3ffr0]

Thanks for sharing and good luck. I think you'll be happy.

I spend a most of time on my 314ce or H&D 00-SP after many years of dread playing. I don't miss playing the dreads. But then again, I don't jam with blue grass players either.

I do find that the Taylor GA is a really versatile guitar. Great for both strumming and finger picking. It can also sound WAY different depending upon the strings you put on it. Big difference between 80/20 and Elixr. I'm actually preferring 80/20 on my GA lately.