Bach T&F in Dm

[OddManOut]

A quick question for those of you who have some musical knowledge about J.S. Bach: Is that big chord after the first three phrases in the Toccata and Fugue in Dm a C# diminished with a D in the bass? Sounds like it to me, though the D might be dropped as the chord "expands".

That has got to be one of the fattest chords ever. So good...

Thanks!

[charles Tauber]

C#dim7, D bass, resolving to D-.

It would never have occurred to me to even try to arrange the Toccata and Fugue, one of the iconic organ pieces, for the guitar. But, Gerhard has captured it relatively well, I think. He said it took him several days to transcribe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_AcYnDn0KI

[mc1]

[OddManOut]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

C#dim7, D bass, resolving to D-.

It would never have occurred to me to even try to arrange the Toccata and Fugue, one of the iconic organ pieces, for the guitar. But, Gerhard has captured it relatively well, I think. He said it took him several days to transcribe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_AcYnDn0KI

Thanks, folks. I love the video and left the following comment (with which you may or may not agree).

"The smaller sound of this piece played on a guitar really accentuates the beauty of the melody and harmonies. A typical organ version is overwhelming (in a good way) in its thunderous power. Here we get something more delicate and hypnotic."

[OddManOut]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

C#dim7, D bass, resolving to D-.

In picking through the written music with my feeble reading skills, it looks to me that, other than the D in the bass, the chord in question is a stack of minor 3rds. i.e. a full diminished. Am I misreading it?

I've always understood a "dim 7" to be what would be called a "min7flat5" in modern chord theory lingo, two minor 3rds and a major 3rd (in that order from the root of the chord). In Dm it occurs naturally at E (E-G-Bb-D).

Anyway, what makes it so cool in the T&F is that it is built on C# (Db) in Dm...which I think makes it D harmonic minor. It's just so good.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by OddManOut

...I've always understood a "dim 7" to be what would be called a "min7flat5" in modern chord theory lingo, .

min7b5 is "half-diminished". dim7 is a diminished triad plus a diminished 7th note.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by OddManOut

Anyway, what makes it so cool in the T&F is that it is built on C# (Db) in Dm...which I think makes it D harmonic minor.

IN the key of D-, there is no Db. It is C#. Pitch-wise they are the same; harmonically they are not.

Melodic minor has a major 7 (C#) ascending. Hence, it could be either "harmonic" or "melodic" minor. The scale degrees are generally built on the harmonic minor.

[OddManOut]

Originally Posted by mc1

dim7 is a diminished triad plus a diminished 7th note.

I see. I guess I've been using the terminology incorrectly. I thought the "dim7" referred to the naturally occurring "half diminished" chord on the 7th degree of the major scale.

Just to confirm I'm clear on the terminology, let me build my understanding of the two examples on a root of B:

Half Diminished (or min7flat5): B-D-F-A

Dim7 (or full diminished): B-D-F-G#

Another cool aspect of the sound in the T&F is the lack of any tritones (without an intermediate 3rd) in the chord. I understand tritones were frowned upon back then. Most of the common voicings of these two chords on the guitar alternate minor 3rds and tritones, resulting in more compact fingerings, and a different sound. Stacks of 3rds can get one's fingers spread out in a hurry. I suppose just the opposite is true on a keyboard.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by OddManOut

Dim7 (or full diminished): B-D-F-G#

No. B, D, F and Ab.

G is not a seventh from B. A is.

Distinguish between the interval - 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 - and its qualifiers - major, minor, diminished or augmented.

Most of the common voicings of these two chords on the guitar alternate minor 3rds and tritones...

Sorry I don't know what you are trying to say. They are simply inversions of chords.

[OddManOut]

Got it...correct tones, wrong notation. Thanks...

Just a comment on chord voicings...not important.

[ceciltguitar]

Just an aside: Then there is the "other" Bach T & F:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxWNmGGItXg

[mc1]

Originally Posted by ceciltguitar

Just an aside: Then there is the "other" Bach T & F:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxWNmGGItXg

this is the same toccata and fugue, bwv 565. there are lots of versions of itout there.

[ceciltguitar]

thanks for setting the record straight! I was in a hurry when I watched the videos, only had time to catch about 30 seconds of both videos, and after posting a quick response wondered if they were the same. I just remembered the Hii arrangement because his arrangement (don't know if it was the same arrangement or not) was published in Acoustic Guitar Magazine one (or two?) decades ago.

[OddManOut]

Originally Posted by ceciltguitar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxWNmGGItXg

That was amazing. He captured it so nicely, so so much technical prowess and fluidity. A whole other aspect to such a fine piece of music.