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  #1  
Old 10-20-2017, 07:30 AM
LNW LNW is offline
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Default To Learn, or to Copy?

I am a low-intermediate guitar player seeking my next direction to grow in playing/practicing. I enjoy learning tabs and playing songs I love, but at the end of the day, I don't feel like this is teaching me much about my instrument.

At this stage in my playing, I want to LEARN the guitar (the notes on the frets, more chords, what chords sound good together, etc) rather than always COPYING other songs, as much as I do enjoy that as well. I want to learn tools to improve my understanding of the guitar and my ability to just "mess around," rather than spending hours to just perfectly "parrot" someone else's song but yet not improve my own understanding of the guitar too much.

What books/resources, or specific musical direction would you recommend I pursue? Should I pursue some book on guitar music theory, or what? Any book recommendations would be super. Thank you kindly!
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  #2  
Old 10-20-2017, 08:02 AM
RedJoker RedJoker is offline
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I'm probably below you on the guitar ladder but what has helped me is to start writing songs. What do I want it to sound like? How do I do that? What are some bits of other songs that sound cool? How do I do that? etc...
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Old 10-20-2017, 08:41 AM
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Believe it or not, get a small keyboard and learn to read the notation of scales on the notes on the keyboard. The piano is the gateway.
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Old 10-20-2017, 03:30 PM
Guitar Slim II Guitar Slim II is offline
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Best way is to learn from copying. But you're right, you have to start from a position of knowledge to gain more knowledge. "Monkey see, monkey do" isn't going to get you far.

You're also correct in your desire to learn the names of the notes. Names have power. A name is a handle that lets you manipulate the thing you've defined.

So, first question is: when playing tabs are you also playing chords? Do you know the names of the chords themselves and can play them? Could you play from a generic chart with just chord names (no tab or chord boxes)? If not, that's probably the place to start. Learn the names of the chord shapes you're making, and learn to read chord symbols straight from a songbook.

This will help in several ways. First, you can learn fully half of the fretboard notes in first position just by learning the bass notes of your chords. What's the lowest note in that G chord? Why G, of course, so now you know...Also, learning and naming the shapes will help down the road in understanding closed-position chords and scales.

Remember, reading a chart is real reading too...

If you want to go the whole formal route and learn to read standard five-line notation, just go get a volume 1 beginner method book -- "The Hal Leonard Guitar Method, Book 1" would work, or the Mel Bay or Alfred equivalent. These books all teach you the names of the notes on each string, and how to read them on the staff. They also teach you about reading rhythms, time signatures and meters, and other formal-music type stuff.

Hope this helps.
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Old 10-20-2017, 06:41 PM
Truckjohn Truckjohn is offline
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Learn some music theory.

Look at how the various styles of music fit together from a theory perspective...

Then start analyzing your favorite songs and think about why they are so good. What are the patterns you see behind "good songs"....
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  #6  
Old 10-20-2017, 07:09 PM
Pitar Pitar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LNW View Post
I am a low-intermediate guitar player seeking my next direction to grow in playing/practicing. I enjoy learning tabs and playing songs I love, but at the end of the day, I don't feel like this is teaching me much about my instrument.

At this stage in my playing, I want to LEARN the guitar (the notes on the frets, more chords, what chords sound good together, etc) rather than always COPYING other songs, as much as I do enjoy that as well. I want to learn tools to improve my understanding of the guitar and my ability to just "mess around," rather than spending hours to just perfectly "parrot" someone else's song but yet not improve my own understanding of the guitar too much.

What books/resources, or specific musical direction would you recommend I pursue? Should I pursue some book on guitar music theory, or what? Any book recommendations would be super. Thank you kindly!
I won't be able to point you to a method or source that you might identify with as a good path to follow. Your goal to just "mess around" was how I reached that goal. I stopped actively listening to music in 1976 because that's about when air play shifted to music I could not relate to, and my own progress needed to be more focused without influences. I never strayed from that and began writing as a natural prompt just to keep things fresh. Anyway, I know exactly what you are thinking about and by chance, happenstance and regular play my own self-development achieved a skill level I'm okay with by just messing around.
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Old 10-20-2017, 08:15 PM
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Take more time to analyze the music pieces you already can play. How are they constructed (chord progressions, harmonies used, arrangement of sections, melodies used, repeat and variations on repeats, etc.).

Take some given melodies, say some Christmas songs, and try and create arrangements using some ideas you picked up from above.

IMO the hardest thing is creating a good melody. So when ready try creating some music from scratch.

I also suggest you might get a copy of "Music Composition for Dummies" and read through it.
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Old 10-20-2017, 08:32 PM
1neeto 1neeto is offline
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In my experience, learning from tab was secretly training me on chords and scales, even though I was just copying what I was seeing. My ear was starting to recognize chords that go together, and my fretting hand was memorizing scale patterns.
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Old 10-22-2017, 06:25 AM
CAPS CAPS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Truckjohn View Post
Learn some music theory.



Look at how the various styles of music fit together from a theory perspective...



Then start analyzing your favorite songs and think about why they are so good. What are the patterns you see behind "good songs"....


This. Justinguitar.com has two ebooks that you can buy...one on basic music theory and one on chord construction. Learning the concepts in those books coupled with learning the notes on the fretboard has opened up the guitar more than anything else for me to date. When you understand how to create a chord and know the notes on the board, you can begin coming up with your own voicings and progressions. Good luck!
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  #10  
Old 10-22-2017, 07:42 AM
Big Band Guitar Big Band Guitar is offline
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Default Two things

1. Pick a string and out loud name all the white notes all the way up the entire fingerboard and back down. Do this for each string at least once every day. Ok to use 1 finger for this.

2. Pick a closed chord form and play every chord counterclockwise around the circle of fifths using that chord form. Also once a day every day.

3. Learn to count. Do these exercises in time, start very slowly, use a metronome.

That should take up the first 45 minutes of your daily practice time.
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  #11  
Old 10-22-2017, 08:40 AM
Nailpicker Nailpicker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LNW View Post
... seeking my next direction to grow in playing/practicing. I enjoy learning tabs and playing songs I love, but at the end of the day, I don't feel like this is teaching me much about my instrument.

At this stage in my playing, I want to LEARN the guitar (the notes on the frets, more chords, what chords sound good together, etc) rather than always COPYING other songs, as much as I do enjoy that as well. I want to learn tools to improve my understanding of the guitar and my ability to just "mess around," rather than spending hours to just perfectly "parrot" someone else's song but yet not improve my own understanding of the guitar too much.
I think you're sort of answering your own question...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LNW View Post
Should I pursue some book on guitar music theory, or what?
Yes!
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  #12  
Old 10-22-2017, 09:46 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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"To Learn or to Copy" is a false distincton! You learn by copying.

You just have to think about what (and why) you're copying.
Copying without thinking is still beneficial, because your technique will improve.
But thinking about what you're doing - asking (yourself) questions about it - will improve your understanding too.

Sample questions:
"Does this tab sound correct?" (If not, why not?)
"How does this tune resemble other tunes I've copied? What elements does it share?"
"How does it differ?"
"What are the names for those elements (the common ones and the different ones)?"
"What are the effects of these differences?"
"If I'm playing the right notes, why doesn't it sound right?"
"How can I make it sound better?"
"What key is this tune in? How can I tell?"
"If it's in that key, what's this chord doing there?" (I.e., literally what is it "doing" - what's its job, its function? why did the composer put it there?)
"Does this song change key, or is it the same key all the way?"
"How does the melody fit the chords?"
"Why did this improviser choose these notes for their solo?"

Music theory will obviously give you some of the answers, and it will give you some jargon to help frame more questions. It will open up the territory to some extent. But it won't really explain why things "work". You can learn a hell of a lot by just interrogating the music you currently play. Pin it down! Torture it! Make it talk!

When it comes to learning the guitar itself, that's much easier. Learn the notes on each fret for a start (that will answer many of the above questions!). Learn chord shapes all over the neck. This can be time-consuming, but you don't need books, just a little common sense, knowledge of the musical alphabet, and an average ear. Maybe some fretboard diagrams to record what you discover, help you remember.

To this end, you can add two more questions to the above:
"How can I play this tab in a different position, in the same key?"
"How can I play this tab in a different key (in any position)?"
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  #13  
Old 10-22-2017, 12:23 PM
Clallam Clallam is offline
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A little music theory is a shortcut to figuring things out. A basic book and a little time playing with the concepts in it can give you the knowledge that it would take a lot of time to learn, trying to figure it out on your own. Work through any book you get with a guitar in your hands and play and listen to every example. Then go to the songs they recommend and try to hear it being used. After that you need to work with lots of songs and try to apply what you've learned. A book by itself is not enough. You still have to spend the time with the songs.

If you search you find several threads on this forum seeking reccommendations on basic therory books.
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  #14  
Old 10-22-2017, 03:15 PM
Nailpicker Nailpicker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
"To Learn or to Copy" is a false distincton! You learn by copying.

You just have to think about what (and why) you're copying.
Copying without thinking is still beneficial, because your technique will improve.
But thinking about what you're doing - asking (yourself) questions about it - will improve your understanding too.

Sample questions:
"Does this tab sound correct?" (If not, why not?)
"How does this tune resemble other tunes I've copied? What elements does it share?"
"How does it differ?"
"What are the names for those elements (the common ones and the different ones)?"
"What are the effects of these differences?"
"If I'm playing the right notes, why doesn't it sound right?"
"How can I make it sound better?"
"What key is this tune in? How can I tell?"
"If it's in that key, what's this chord doing there?" (I.e., literally what is it "doing" - what's its job, its function? why did the composer put it there?)
"Does this song change key, or is it the same key all the way?"
"How does the melody fit the chords?"
"Why did this improviser choose these notes for their solo?"

Music theory will obviously give you some of the answers, and it will give you some jargon to help frame more questions. It will open up the territory to some extent. But it won't really explain why things "work". You can learn a hell of a lot by just interrogating the music you currently play. Pin it down! Torture it! Make it talk!

When it comes to learning the guitar itself, that's much easier. Learn the notes on each fret for a start (that will answer many of the above questions!). Learn chord shapes all over the neck. This can be time-consuming, but you don't need books, just a little common sense, knowledge of the musical alphabet, and an average ear. Maybe some fretboard diagrams to record what you discover, help you remember.

To this end, you can add two more questions to the above:
"How can I play this tab in a different position, in the same key?"
"How can I play this tab in a different key (in any position)?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
"To Learn or to Copy" is a false distincton! You learn by copying.
I can't help but disagree. It is not a false distinction. Nor does one automatically (or usually) learn by copying. When a student is taking a test, doesn't know the answer to a question, looks over the shoulder of the person in front of him and copies the answer to his test sheet he hasn't really learned anything. If the answer turns out be be correct, he may have learned, "it pays to cheat." If the answer turns out to be wrong, he may have learned, "it doesn't pay to cheat." Either way he hasn't learned anything about the subject being tested. To "learn by copying" implies (again, to me) one already has sufficient knowledge to understand what the questions even are, what questions to ask. Music theory (knowledge) may not explain why something works, but it will certainly help understanding in how it works. You can "interrogate the music you currently play. Pin it down! Torture it! Make it talk!" But you have to have sufficient knowledge to begin with to ask the right questions and understand the answers.

Semantics can be very oblique and often muddy the thinking, the objectivity, the very meaning of words, phrases and ideas. I have no intention of getting into a tit for tat, there'd be no point in that, but to me most of your post (to my thinking) implies the importance of learning.

"Here are a few differences between learning and copying:
Copying usually happens when we’re looking for a shortcut.
It’s so tempting to find a short cut, usually in the form of copying another ...that we perceive to be successful (whatever that means to us). However, the short cut is usually anything but.
On the other hand, learning takes time, and it’s hard. Really hard sometimes. There is no playbook or step-by-step plan for innovation and making yourself — better. Copying is about desiring someone else’s success.
Usually we copy because there’s something inside of us that wants to be that person...
Learning is about understanding the principles at work.
When you learn from someone else — even when that means trying something similar to what they have tried — it means finding the principles that are involved and transferring them to your own context. On the surface, it’s a very subtle difference from copying. But when you dive beneath the surface, there’s a huge difference between “How does this work?” and “Just give me what they’re having.”
Copying expects the exact same results in our own context.

When you copy someone else outright, you usually expect that you’ll get the same results as the person...you copied from. Copying just leads you one more step into the comparison trap."
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  #15  
Old 10-22-2017, 03:57 PM
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TBman TBman is offline
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To "copy" an established professional performer would be not be easy and would require a lot of skill building.
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