Tuning Insanity

[Mandobart]

I grew up playing in orchestra. We all tuned our 440 Hz A to the concertmaster's, which he tuned using a fork. We tuned the rest of our strings by ear, having developed our ear for the 5ths interval. Most everyone in orchestra could do it.

I've met a bunch of guitarists who think they can tune by ear. Only a handful of them actually can, and these are usually former band/orhestra nerds.

Almost every flattop guitar I've ever picked up in a store could not be properly intonated. Sloppy nut slots, frets but mostly bridge compensation are the culprits. So you get your open strings right (either by a tuner, pitch pipe, tuning fork or your miraculous ear) but as soon as you start fretting notes you can hear its wrong (particularly the first D on the B string). So you blame the tuner and set about "tuning" by ear - which just means you find the least sucky sounding compromise that allows you to get through a song in first position chords.

That's the beauty of fretless instruments, correctly compensated saddles, archtops and tunematic bridges - you make a lot fewer compromises regardless how you tune.

[Goodallboy]

After years of using one of the most accurate tuners on the market, my ability to detect an out of tune note has increased substantially.

Whether you call that a blessing or a curse is an individual issue. I appreciate the improvement.

Assuming everyone has the same ability in detecting slightly out of pitch notes is demonstrably false. So is the claim that ones ear cannot be improved with a high quality tuner.

A perfect way to continue to doubt this is to never bother owning a top tier tuner.

[rmyAddison]

Originally Posted by Mandobart

I grew up playing in orchestra. We all tuned our 440 Hz A to the concertmaster's, which he tuned using a fork. We tuned the rest of our strings by ear, having developed our ear for the 5ths interval. Most everyone in orchestra could do it.

I've met a bunch of guitarists who think they can tune by ear. Only a handful of them actually can, and these are usually former band/orhestra nerds.

Almost every flattop guitar I've ever picked up in a store could not be properly intonated. Sloppy nut slots, frets but mostly bridge compensation are the culprits. So you get your open strings right (either by a tuner, pitch pipe, tuning fork or your miraculous ear) but as soon as you start fretting notes you can hear its wrong (particularly the first D on the B string). So you blame the tuner and set about "tuning" by ear - which just means you find the least sucky sounding compromise that allows you to get through a song in first position chords.

That's the beauty of fretless instruments, correctly compensated saddles, archtops and tunematic bridges - you make a lot fewer compromises regardless how you tune.

THIS ^^^^

A LOT of players think they are in tune, or "it's close enough", not to play with me, sorry.

No guitar has perfect intonation, but you can get as close as possible with a "good" tuner, and that's a lot closer than by ear "it's good enough", there is a much higher degree of precision with a good tuner like Peterson Stroboclip.

Decades ago I was in a trio with my brother with a very good singer, decent player, who copped an attitude about passing the tuner around, one of the early Korgs. We fought at the start of every practice about tuning.

Finally I said OK, you tune your guitar the absolute best you can, take your time, then we'll run it through the tuner. If you're dead on I'll shut up, and never ask you to use it again, if you're off you'll shut up and use the stinkin' tuner.

He was off by a bit, refused to use the tuner next practice, and we fired him.

I use a VoiceLive3 a LOT to add harmonies. It triggers off my guitar, if I'm out of tune the harmonies sound horrible.

Tarzan say - In tune good, out of tune bad...........

[gfspencer]

In 1984 I bought a Boss TU-15 Chromatic Tuner with Accu-Pitch. I still use it. It was an expensive tuner at the time but I think I have gotten my money's worth out of it.

[BluesKing777]

Some days you wake up and even your tuner is out of tune!



BluesKing777.

[guitargabor]

I think there are two categories of listeners:

Those who possess a fairly acute sense of correct pitch and those that do not.Generally we label the latter as ones who "can't hold a tune..."

They are much more dependent on digital tuners.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Mandobart

Almost every flattop guitar I've ever picked up in a store could not be properly intonated. Sloppy nut slots, frets but mostly bridge compensation are the culprits. So you get your open strings right (either by a tuner, pitch pipe, tuning fork or your miraculous ear) but as soon as you start fretting notes you can hear its wrong (particularly the first D on the B string).

Originally Posted by rmyAddison

No guitar has perfect intonation, but you can get as close as possible with a "good" tuner, and that's a lot closer than by ear "it's good enough"

This comes up pretty often.

There are two unrelated things at work here. The first is "intonation", the second is "temperament".

Intonation is the ability of an instrument to achieve the desired pitches. "Good" intonation means that the instrument is able to play the desired pitches. Temperament determines what are the desired pitches.

As Mandobart points out, most guitars are not setup well to achieve good intonation. A guitar that cannot closely achieve the desired pitches across the "useful" range of the instrument cannot be tuned: you simply chase around what is in tune at the moment.

As others have pointed out, the guitar is, with few exceptions, designed and made with equal temperament. Equal temperament is a compromise that allows playing equally in tune in every key. Unfortunately, it isn't exactly what the ear wants to hear as "in tune". Hence, even if the intonation - the ability of the instrument to accurately-enough achieve the desired pitches - were very good, it produces notes the ears hear as being somewhat out of tune. They are two separate issues. Confusing them is sure to make guitarists frustrated and unhappy.

If you are particularly concerned about playing in tune, start by having your instrument setup by someone well-versed in such things: most repair people are not. That involves more than making the 12th fret harmonic "close" in pitch to the 12th fret fretted note. Only then, can you begin to start towards an "in tune" guitar.

[mickthemiller]

I sometimes spend what seems like ages trying to get a guitar in tune. An E chord sounds ok then I play a G or a D and it sounds off. I can tune with a tuner and by ear with the string to string tuning and all seems ok until the chords are played. I now tune with the tuner and then listen to the three chords above and adjust until all sound ok. It does seem to all have become more complicated as I've aged, so could be my ears, although I've often blamed the guitar which is not good as the old adage states, a bad workman always blames his tools.

[Rodger Knox]

Originally Posted by mickthemiller

An E chord sounds ok then I play a G or a D and it sounds off.

That's the way equal temperament sounds. See Charles's post above.

[vindibona1]

Band/orchestra nerd here. I won't even get into what I've learned from the many years of experience there...

But there are several factors involved in tuning. The first is DEADLY accuracy. Sorry folks but your Snark is only going to get you close. And close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades- and certainly not in music. When I go to my gig tonight I'm going to have both a Korg Pitchblack and a Korg CA 40 in series, the CA 40 being the one I trust more. But even then I'll be checking with my ear.

The next thing that one has to do is make sure the intonation on the guitar is correct. My Martin recently got a neck reset, new frets and bridge/saddle and it came back without being intonated and was sent back for the adjustment (they still are only in the ballpark and will send it back once more). Unless your guitar is PROPERLY set up and intonated it doesn't matter how good your tuner is. Tuning will always be a wrestling match until you get that fixed.

Then we have to deal with the issue of equal temperament. Equal temperament is a "cheat" harmonically so that we can play in every key, but if a guitar is "perfectly in tune" that means that in many keys the 3rds of chords/intervals aren't going to be harmonically synchronized (and to a lesser extent, 7ths) without some sort of adjustment. Additionally we have sensory issues, as we listen to notes high up on the scale they're going to start to sound flat even though perfectly in tune. Professional piano tuners intentionally tune upper notes on a piano a hair sharp to compensate for this psycho-acoustic phenomenon.

Lastly, we have string deflection. Lower strings which will oscillate more than higher strings, when struck hard, will travel a greater distance than higher strings struck with the same intensity and act as if the string has been shortened, making the pitch go sharp. Sometimes we have to adjust the lower strings to compensate for this deflection. James Taylor's sweetened tunings adjust all the strings to compensate for both deflection and temperament issues.

Bonus round- Every guitar has it's own character in terms of overtones and resultant harmonics. While adjustments such as sweetened tuning will help one guitar it can just as easily knock a different guitar off its game by fixing one issue but creating another in it's place. That's a whole 'nother discussion in itself.

Bottom line... The ear is the deciding factor and just like playing itself, tuning takes practice and skill to get it right. You may not be able to hear it if its not exactly right. Some folks just can't, just like some folks don't distinguish colors well. But some of us are just lazy, uncaring or unskilled. I don't know what to say about he latter category.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Rodger Knox

Originally Posted by mickthemiller View Post
An E chord sounds ok then I play a G or a D and it sounds off.

That's the way equal temperament sounds. See Charles's post above.

That's exactly how equal temperament does NOT sound. By definition, equal temperament sounds equally in tune and out of tune in all keys.

If an E chord sounds ok and then a G or D sounds off, either the E chord wasn't tuned to equal temperament or the intonation of the instrument is poor, or both.

Again, it is important to differentiate between the two if one wants to have any chance of making sense of one's tuning. In my experience, an overwhelming number of guitars are just not setup well to achieve good intonation. As vindibona1's experience shows not every "tech" can or does achieve that.

[Rodger Knox]

I stand corrected, thanks Charles. My pitch discrimination is terrible, +/- 5 cents or more. Everything sounds in tune to me.

[tippy5]

Originally Posted by musicman1951

Without going into a long deal, your ear is right and I think you'll find that if you slightly flatten the third of the I chord you'll be happier. If you're a hard strummer you will probably want to slightly flatten the low E string as well.

This is true especially at a loud gig with many players. I think that's why a lot of guitarists play fifths to cut through for a perfect guitar part. Who needs the bloody third? I saw Martin Barre's new touring band the other night and he has it down. There were tasty partial chord fifths, counter melodies, that were Sabbath like. Pure electric sound.

For solo acoustic stuff I have the worst intonation on my 1959 Gibson Country Western. But with its tone and fat neck I keep it for certain songs. I just tune down the low E and just a few cents the wound G. Another argument for luthier built (maybe fan fret?) accuracy up the neck.

[Goodallboy]

Originally Posted by Shaneh

I have the exact same issue. I feel like my guitar never seems in tune and spend way too much time fixing it. Never used to have that issue at all. Seems like something when I got older like you said. If you find a cure let me know. I sometimes give up and change guitars and that doesn’t always work.

Ok, what tuner are you using. That's where you start diagnosing your issue.

Tell me that and we'll move on from there.

[Rudy4]

Tune with an electronic tuner, check a few chords in the key you're going to play in, sweeten a bit to make it acceptable and play music.

Use the same technique for any fretted instrument and quit sweating the small stuff.

Here's my rant:
http://web.archive.org/web/201603282...tionTips3.html