Anyone know what Martin is using for its non "Genuine Mahogany"?

[ManyMartinMan]

It is pretty funny. Most people won't raise a hand to question what is meant by Quilted Mahogany or Fiddleback Mahogany or Flamed Mahogany.... but they will worry about whether the Mahogany has pedigree. All this becomes moot if everyone simply purchased a guitar they love - regardless of wood, bracing, string spacing............ Can't we all just get along???

[djg]

Originally Posted by Todd Yates

You are correct - most consumers don't care. When someone asks me what kind of dog I have, my reply is, "Mostly brown." That's how the typical buyer of 15 Series and similar Martins feel. They're happy to find a Martin that sounds and plays nicely at an affordable price.

Those of us on guitar forums, we care much more about such things than the average buyer. That is why Martin freely answers questions and provides the kind of detailed information that I posted above. They're not trying to hide anything. If they were, they certainly wouldn't respond to me.

On this topic, I find my own behavior at least as curious as Martin's. My Martin CEO-7 was, I believe, manufactured sometime around the switch to Sipo. I'm mildly curious to know which species of wood was used for the back and sides. I've been mildly curious about it for years now. But I've never bothered to call or email to ask Martin. I assume that they would know, based on the serial number, and that they would answer my question truthfully, were I to ask it. Seems easy enough -- no harder than typing this post, really. And yet . . .

But I don't disagree with you -- and, FWIW, I appreciate your posts on various things Martin.

[Swamp Yankee]

Originally Posted by Zerofournine

You asked your question, and got the answer, but were also told to look back through the forum archives where the same question had already been asked multiple times. Nobody is a victim, and there is no reason to defend anyone. I'm sorry I wrote what I wrote.

Martin will continue to make Martin sounding guitars out of wood that EVERY company in the world also calls mahogany with no differentiation unless you dig or ask. Larrivee calls khaya mahogany, Taylor calls sapele mahogany and Gibson calls whatever they are using mahogany too. Why Martin gets questioned/criticised for it is ridiculous.

nuh uh... Taylor calls sapele sapele. And if I hadn't seen any number of guitars over the years described as being sipo,sapele, Spanish cedar, or khaya, then I might be inclined to agree that every other maker just calls these woods "mahogany" but I have, so I won't

I just bought a second hand 2014 Martin 000-17SM that smells incredible, like a cigar box .....sitka top over "mahogany" but I'm wondering if it's really Spanish Cedar.

Whatever it is, it's extremely aromatic. I had the guitar upstairs but left the case open in my office downstairs for a few hours. My office now smells like the guitar

[Rumblefish]

Originally Posted by Swamp Yankee

nuh uh... Taylor calls sapele sapele. And if I hadn't seen any number of guitars over the years described as being sipo,sapele, Spanish cedar, or khaya, then I might be inclined to agree that every other maker just calls these woods "mahogany" but I have, so I won't

I just bought a second hand 2014 Martin 000-17SM that smells incredible, like a cigar box .....sitka top over "mahogany" but I'm wondering if it's really Spanish Cedar.

Whatever it is, it's extremely aromatic. I had the guitar upstairs but left the case open in my office downstairs for a few hours. My office now smells like the guitar

You should put it in the closet to keep the moths off your sweaters

[bluespiderweb]

Interesting thread, thanks for posting this one! Learned a lot already just reading here-about these woods, and about the use by various companies. I have a new inspiration for the mahogany variations on the market, since I just found the Martin Sapele 000RS1, and DRS1 guitars and played them.

I've been hanging out here a bit more since, and I'm playing more too!

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by Swamp Yankee

nuh uh... Taylor calls sapele sapele. And if I hadn't seen any number of guitars over the years described as being sipo,sapele, Spanish cedar, or khaya, then I might be inclined to agree that every other maker just calls these woods "mahogany" but I have, so I won't

I just bought a second hand 2014 Martin 000-17SM that smells incredible, like a cigar box .....sitka top over "mahogany" but I'm wondering if it's really Spanish Cedar.

Whatever it is, it's extremely aromatic. I had the guitar upstairs but left the case open in my office downstairs for a few hours. My office now smells like the guitar

I believe Martin use cedar for kerfing. Perhaps that's what you are smelling?

[Swamp Yankee]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

I believe Martin use cedar for kerfing. Perhaps that's what you are smelling?

Going by the post earlier in this thread listing the woods Martin uses and calls "mahogany" ....Spanish cedar (Cedrela odorata), is on that list. Judging by the amount of delicious aromatics coming off this guitar, I'd be very surprised if it was originating from the kerfing alone.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by ManyMartinMan

All this becomes moot if everyone simply purchased a guitar they love - regardless of wood, bracing, string spacing.

I think many become overly concerned with wood specifics because they think the wood guarantees a certain tone. And while it's true that the wood plays a role, there is going to be variation between wood sets of the same species, and the method of construction will play a bigger role than the wood. Folks come here and read about this guitar and that guitar having great tone, and they want that... they want a guitar with great tone.

But what if you don't trust your ears?

If you don't trust your ears, you run with the herd. Running with the herd is not something unique or specific to this forum. It's human nature and this forum is not immune. Some read Brazilian Rosewood is the best wood enough times and they get the idea that they have to have a BRW guitar to get a great tone. They read about scalloped braces, or torrified tops, or hide glue, or any other number of variables that happen to be the hot topic at the moment and some number of great sounding guitars are passed over because the spec sheet becomes more important than the tone of any specific guitar.

Don't buy a guitar that inspires someone else; buy a guitar that inspires YOU. Buy what sounds great to your ears and don't concern yourself with what sounds great to someone else. I'm not saying specs are unimportant but don't be so worried about the spec sheet that you pass over what sounds wonderful.

[Athens]

As far as I'm concerned the sound and playability determine whether or not I buy a guitar. Now, if I pay an up charge for woods that I'm not really getting, that's fraud.

BUT.... it would be nice if the manufacturers were up front about the actual materials being used. There's so much legislation regarding woods now that not knowing which species you have could lead to problems.

If you have a guitar that you've been told is Rosewood and its Palo Escrito (in the same family) and a customs agent says it's BRW, you're in a bind as all the manufacturer will confirm is "Rosewood". Its too ambiguous.

If you can show him that it's Palo Escrito, it's a different situation.

Yes, yes, I know about the 10kg rule, but, again, it's your word against an overzealous Customs Agent. Why bother getting into that situation to begin with.

An extreme case, I agree, but not totally unrealistic.

[AZLiberty]

Originally Posted by Brick is Red

I've seen this type of reply aimed at others. As it is now being pulled on me, I'll address it directly. I had not been over it at all. Had I seen any of it, I would not have asked. What is the point of this kind of post?

As to the substance of the matter, your summary math is objectively false. Martin is presently using more than Sipo as substitute woods under the name of mahogany. That is by their words as reported by Todd Yates. It's factually accurate and sourced information I would not have had I not asked.

Frankly, the posture of your reply is inconsiderate. It's figurative eye rolling.

You need to read what Todd wrote again.

Martin is currently using Sipo and has been for several years.

We have a search for a reason, and we go over this almost every month.

When Martin says "Mahogany" it's actually Sipo.
When Larrivee says "Mahogany it's actually Khaya
When Taylor says Mahogany it's actually Mahogany (surprising I know)

Martin isn't using Khaya, or Sapele, or anything else that Todd listed currently, and has not. They may or may not switch to one of those woods depending on supply.

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by AZLiberty

You need to read what Todd wrote again.

Martin is currently using Sipo and has been for several years.

We have a search for a reason, and we go over this almost every month.

When Martin says "Mahogany" it's actually Sipo.
When Larrivee says "Mahogany it's actually Khaya
When Taylor says Mahogany it's actually Mahogany (surprising I know)

Martin isn't using Khaya, or Sapele, or anything else that Todd listed currently, and has not. They may or may not switch to one of those woods depending on supply.

My CEO-5 was bearclaw spruce over sapele, and was described as such by Martin. https://www.elderly.com/martin-ceo-5...hoice-2002.htm

[madhat]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

My CEO-5 was bearclaw spruce over sapele, and was described as such by Martin. https://www.elderly.com/martin-ceo-5...hoice-2002.htm

But if it were a CEO7 = Sipo....

I think Sipo is the best alternative substitute for genuine hog- easily as good.
Maybe even better as a top- sweet wood ifn you ask my ears.

Have fun

madhat.

[dcmey]

Originally Posted by jim1960

I think many become overly concerned with wood specifics because they think the wood guarantees a certain tone. And while it's true that the wood plays a role, there is going to be variation between wood sets of the same species, and the method of construction will play a bigger role than the wood. Folks come here and read about this guitar and that guitar having great tone, and they want that... they want a guitar with great tone.

But what if you don't trust your ears?

If you don't trust your ears, you run with the herd. Running with the herd is not something unique or specific to this forum. It's human nature and this forum is not immune. Some read Brazilian Rosewood is the best wood enough times and they get the idea that they have to have a BRW guitar to get a great tone. They read about scalloped braces, or torrified tops, or hide glue, or any other number of variables that happen to be the hot topic at the moment and some number of great sounding guitars are passed over because the spec sheet becomes more important than the tone of any specific guitar.

Don't buy a guitar that inspires someone else; buy a guitar that inspires YOU. Buy what sounds great to your ears and don't concern yourself with what sounds great to someone else. I'm not saying specs are unimportant but don't be so worried about the spec sheet that you pass over what sounds wonderful.

exactly. To be honest believe thread is still going on. Trust your ears people.

[merlin666]

Originally Posted by ManyMartinMan

It is pretty funny. Most people won't raise a hand to question what is meant by Quilted Mahogany or Fiddleback Mahogany or Flamed Mahogany.... but they will worry about whether the Mahogany has pedigree.

Well that's what I meant ... we should get away from these silly marketing descriptions that have no meaning. So the non-genuine Mahoganies tend to have some figuring and patterns, and I get it that a lot of people like that and it can be a great selling point. But with flowery descriptions like this to cover up the fact that's it not genuine I'm always afraid that more effort goes into creative marketing than into building decent guitars.

[Swamp Yankee]

Taylor uses ebony fingerboards that are not entirely black after finding the woodcutters in the last country on earth that still allows the harvesting of ebony were leaving 90% of the trees they felled to rot in the jungle because they weren't all black. Taylor then offers them as figured ebony or streaky ebony and they're accused of disseminating propaganda and trying to force the buying public to accept substandard wood.

Then Taylor uses stain on their maple back guitars and they're accused of breaking with tradition simply to cover up their use of substandard wood.

OTOH Martin has a laundry list of mahogany look-alikes that it calls "mahogany" but are not, and this is in models it has listed as being mahogany, while at the same time they're offering "genuine mahogany" for quite a bit more money....and the consensus seems to be: shut up and play the thing