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  #46  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:37 PM
Tommy_G Tommy_G is offline
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Peavey sold their parts inventory to a third party a few years ago that looked like a liquidation activity to me and my understanding moved production offshore.

The trend seems to be pricepoint in a Made in China global electronics marketplace.
. and also the proliferation of heavy discounted music gear available on craigslist and ebay... And maybe the game Guitar Hero is responsible too...

Last edited by Tommy_G; 10-13-2017 at 11:45 AM.
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  #47  
Old 10-13-2017, 06:57 AM
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MESA i believe started manufacturing oversees... And made a big splash into pedals...

Probably ran into the same issue that Carvin had...

Peavey sold their parts inventory to a third party a few years ago that looked like a liquidation activity to me and my understanding moved production offshore.

The trend seems to be pricepoint in a Made in China global electronics marketplace.
. and also the proliferation of heavy discounted music gear available on craigslist and ebay... And maybe the game Guitar Hero is responsible too...
Curious where did you get the info that Mesa's started mfg. overseas ?

Here is what is currently on their web sight

"Every MESA/Boogie, including all the cabinets, is entirely made in our one location here in Petaluma, California, where we’ve been since 1980."
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  #48  
Old 10-13-2017, 09:43 AM
zhunter zhunter is offline
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I gather that Mississippi has extraordinarily low taxes overall, but to my surprise they appear to have a high level of regulation and are not rated as particularly business-friendly. They have some other things going against them including a poorly educated workforce.

CNBC has a detailed ranking of best-to-worst states for business. I'm going to add Texas as a state known for its decent economy in recent years.

CNBC's "cost of business" where you're looking for low taxes, low utility costs and incentives ranks Calif. 49, Texas 15 and Miss. #1.

"Business friendliness" covers regulatory levels and litigation. Calif. ranks #50, Texas 24, Miss. 44.

Workforce has Calif. 10, Texas 1, Miss. 46.

Overall these three come in as Calif. 28, Texas 4, Miss. 48.

Mississippi would also like to send its thanks to Hawaii and West Virginia.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/11/amer...l-ranking.html

Lots of things go into starting and running a business, including other factors in that survey like quality of life and infrastructure. One point I agree with was the ridiculously tough time a Carvin had competing against Sweetwater, Musician's Friend, its brick-and-mortar cousin Guitar Center etc. They have amazing selection and outstanding return policies. I had zero trouble, online-ordering, returning and getting a refund for one guitar each from Sweetwater and Elderly simply because I didn't like the sound. Looking at it that way it's amazing Carvin lasted as long as it did.

I understand they had great return policies too, but the selection issue played out with me when I when shopping for my first Martin over a year ago. I wanted to buy from a wonderful Mom and Pop store, but they had a tiny selection. Five miles away was Guitar Center, a big one, where I spent months playing pretty much every high-end guitar they had until I bought the GPC-28E, which I didn't even know existed when I started (and which the Mom-and-Pop didn't have in stock, nor would I have known even to ask for it). I'll add I was lucky to meet an extremely knowledgeable, helpful and patient salesman at this particular GC, we all know that ain't always the case. (Indeed it wasn't the case a few months later when I walked into the exact same GC when Expert Salesman was out and the B Team I encountered fit our stereotype of big box salespeople).

I'll keep my eye out for used versions of the AG200 and 300, but I was already keeping my eye out for them on Reverb and Ebay and rarely saw anything--which to me said people were happy with them. In fact the only AG200/300s I saw in eBay were new ones being sold by Carvin.
Forbes has a similar analysis and reaches some different conclusions though general trends apply. Mississippi ultimately ranks poorly because of consistently near the bottom quality of life and labor supply related rankings. Alabama and Mississippi both rank near the bottom overall, yet these have been states that have captured a decent chunk of the pretty desirable auto industry, Nissan in Mississippi and Mercedes Benz in Alabama. Again overall quality of life issues really make it difficult for many business to enter these areas and drop them down the list.

California does have a high business cost. And in spite of California's high business cost, Forbes still ranks the state 4th in Growth Prospects. Carvin, in this case was already an established CA company. They already had the regulatory issues behind them and had their compliance processes in place. And they had the real estate. So two of the major CA negatives were behind them.

Who knows maybe the property was worth more than the company. There are CA companies that make good money stuffing boards for other applications. Maybe they can make better money that way without sweating product development and marketing. Just market a skill set. OTH In the end, probably just a market niche that changed to the point they couldn't compete. OTOH maybe they were already outsourcing board assembly and don't have that skill to market.

In the end, probably just a market niche that changed to the point they couldn't compete. And as I stated earlier, dismal resale kept them down the list in the flipper market.

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  #49  
Old 10-13-2017, 10:43 AM
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Carvin, in this case was already an established CA company. They already had the regulatory issues behind them and had their compliance processes in place. And they had the real estate. So two of the major CA negatives were behind them.
Many businesses will be interested to hear that regulatory burdens apply only during startup, after which property taxes also sunset--both for corporate entities and all their employees, I am sure.

Regardless of the reasons, more businesses and Americans are leaving California than moving there. With Carvin it's likely a combination of the widely known friction of running a business in that state, changes in the market niche you cite, and possibly just the weariness of dealing with the never-ending knife-fight of running most companies. Sad to see them go.
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  #50  
Old 10-13-2017, 11:22 AM
Tommy_G Tommy_G is offline
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Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Curious where did you get the info that Mesa's started mfg. overseas ?

Here is what is currently on their web sight

"Every MESA/Boogie, including all the cabinets, is entirely made in our one location here in Petaluma, California, where we’ve been since 1980."
I could swear i recall reading about it online.. Possibly thegearpage...... But alas.. I cant find evidence of it...

Looks like a false memory moment... Getting more of those as I get older... I erased that part of my post because I think MESA wouldnt appreciate it...

Last edited by Tommy_G; 10-13-2017 at 11:46 AM.
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  #51  
Old 10-13-2017, 12:22 PM
zhunter zhunter is offline
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Many businesses will be interested to hear that regulatory burdens apply only during startup, after which property taxes also sunset--both for corporate entities and all their employees, I am sure.

Regardless of the reasons, more businesses and Americans are leaving California than moving there. With Carvin it's likely a combination of the widely known friction of running a business in that state, changes in the market niche you cite, and possibly just the weariness of dealing with the never-ending knife-fight of running most companies. Sad to see them go.
Yes I could have stated that better. They already had regulatory issues incorporated into their business model.

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  #52  
Old 10-13-2017, 01:45 PM
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I could swear i recall reading about it online.. Possibly thegearpage...... But alas.. I cant find evidence of it...

Looks like a false memory moment... Getting more of those as I get older... I erased that part of my post because I think MESA wouldnt appreciate it...
The reason I asked is I just happened to do a fair amount of research about Mesa Engineering in the last few weeks before purchasing a used unit. And did not find anything indicating they had moved mfg.
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  #53  
Old 10-13-2017, 04:55 PM
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Mississippi has many, many challenges; a small (3 million) poorly educated population is certainly near or at the top of the list. That said, within a fifteen minute drive from my house is a large commercial drone manufacturer, a Yokohama tire plant (one of four to be built on that location), a Paccar engine plant, American Eurocopter, which assembles helicopters, and a large state of the art rolled steel mill. Less than two hours away are a Toyota and Nissan plant.

Labor is cheap here and unions are unheard of. Access to large ports in the Gulf are only a few hours away, as are Memphis and Birmingham. The cost of living is very low and my friends who visit from Boston and South Florida say the house prices, even for custom homes, is half of their cost.

There are also many drawbacks, the abject poverty and lingering vestiges of race issues.

I moved down here in 1984 from Philly. Brought (what I thought) were my hot jazz fusion DiMeola, Metheny chops with me and got schooled real quick on what it meant to say something musically with just a few notes. Blues music is not only alive in Mississippi, it is truly steeped into the culture.

I guess those of us who live hear need to work hard to improve the things that needs improving but at the same time I wouldn't tried the music, weather, bass fishing, hospitality, southern women, and year round tennis for anything.
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  #54  
Old 10-13-2017, 04:56 PM
Ruppster Ruppster is offline
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Mississippi has many, many challenges; a small (3 million) poorly educated population is certainly near or at the top of the list. That said, within a fifteen minute drive from my house is a major research university, a large commercial drone manufacturer, a Yokohama tire plant (one of four to be built on that location), a Paccar engine plant, American Eurocopter, which assembles helicopters, and a large state of the art rolled steel mill. Less than two hours away are Toyota and Nissan plants.

Labor is cheap here and unions are unheard of. Access to large ports in the Gulf are only a few hours away, as are Memphis and Birmingham. The cost of living is very low and my friends who visit from Boston and South Florida say the house prices, even for custom homes, is half of their cost.

There are also many drawbacks, the abject poverty and lingering vestiges of race issues.

I moved down here in 1984 from Philly. Brought (what I thought) were my hot jazz fusion DiMeola, Metheny chops with me and got schooled real quick on what it meant to say something musically with just a few notes. Blues music is not only alive in Mississippi, it is truly steeped into the culture.

I guess those of us who live hear need to work hard to improve the things that needs improving but at the same time I wouldn't tried the music, weather, bass fishing, BBQ, hospitality, southern women, and year round tennis for anything.
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  #55  
Old 10-13-2017, 09:04 PM
M Hayden M Hayden is offline
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I'll miss Carvin's boards. They are alarmingly tough - I've seen a 32-ch board get dropped and work fine.

Their powered speakers are great for low-budget setups, too.

...hopefully Kiesel will keep making the Holdsworth guitars. Been promising myself one for years and hope they don't decide to simplify their offerings bc of the separate audio business closing.
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  #56  
Old 10-13-2017, 10:43 PM
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...hopefully Kiesel will keep making the Holdsworth guitars. Been promising myself one for years and hope they don't decide to simplify their offerings bc of the separate audio business closing.
If anything Kiesel Guitars are expanding their product line! But yes like many businesses they do occasionally discontinue models that aren't selling enough to justify keeping around. Right now they have five Holdsworth guitars in stock; maybe you can fulfill that promise if one is just right for you!

(I am not affiliated w/Kiesel or Carvin other than as a customer.)
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  #57  
Old 10-15-2017, 07:09 PM
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As an enthusiastic AG300 owner, and a longtime user of their PA gear, I find this a sad situation. I've always admired their business model, but there are so many consumers driven by marketing and hype. Only one artist endorsement ( Steve Vai?) and every retailer bad mouthing their products ( no profits for them).

As far as my AG300, better sounding than the Fishmans I've played through and not Schertler expensive.
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  #58  
Old 10-16-2017, 12:05 AM
Nama Ensou Nama Ensou is offline
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Only one artist endorsement...Steve Vai?
Wonder what choice that leaves Vai now? Buy the designs and take them to another manufacturer???
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  #59  
Old 10-17-2017, 06:17 PM
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The reason I asked is I just happened to do a fair amount of research about Mesa Engineering in the last few weeks before purchasing a used unit. And did not find anything indicating they had moved mfg.
Let me clarify this... ALL Mesa products are manufactured at the Petaluma CA factory. There are no products manufactured overseas.
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  #60  
Old 10-26-2017, 07:24 AM
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A friend of mine was at the Carvin showroom in San Diego last week and they are still moving some things out. Sad that one of the pillars of music equipment is saying goodbye.
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