shoot myself in the foot....Ai mastering

[kurth]

I'm one of those people that think Ai is about as dangerous as nuclear war...so the crow is hard to eat. I guess I always thought upscaling photos or video was ok. But in my music...no way. It was a joke, and a scary one, that people are using it to write whole songs. But mastering in Ozone blew me away. While I've got the playing down( as good as my60years playing can ) and I've got the recording and effects down, and I've got the mixingdown ....the mastering was my AchillesHeel. When I listened thru different systems, sometimes things that competed for the same sonic space just disappeared. I thought how could this guy be doing it so well, and so polished, and mine sounds worse that a 70's pirated cassette? It just couldn't be my cheap amazon used compu, or that $100 behringer interface, or my cheap guitars. And I tried learning mastering from youtube. Did all the recommendations to no avail. So last night I looked into Ai mastering. Downloaded the elements trial. Well I found the secret sauce for us mortals. Sorry to say this for the producers....really I am...but your clock just ran out. So too for all those online services, unless you're only doing one or two songs.
ok enough ranting...back to that plate. Let me at least get the feathers cleaned off !

[dnf777]

I think we are at an inflection point in humanity. Just as the industrial revolution and digital age changed the lives of bllions of people, they will pale in comparison to AI. Just look at the capabilities TODAY, compared to a year ago. 6 months ago. ONE month ago! Where will we be a year from now?

[kurth]

Originally Posted by dnf777

I think we are at an inflection point in humanity. Just as the industrial revolution and digital age changed the lives of bllions of people, they will pale in comparison to AI. Just look at the capabilities TODAY, compared to a year ago. 6 months ago. ONE month ago! Where will we be a year from now?

Dave...assuming there will be a year from now.

[DupleMeter]

Having done many tests of AI mastering & mixing, I’ll say this: there’s a reason five star chefs aren’t scared when a McDonalds shows up [emoji6]

[kurth]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

Having done many tests of AI mastering & mixing, IÂ’ll say this: thereÂ’s a reason five star chefs arenÂ’t scared when a McDonalds shows up [emoji6]

Depends on where you are. In my town we have 5 star restaurants for the tourist at $75bucks a plate...and taco stands, that are better, for the locals at about 2% of the price. When there's no tourist, the upscale restaurants fall like flies, and the taco stands endure year after year.

I understand your point, and I'm sure it's valid....if you're making a commercial endeavor, and someone's footing the bill. But about the cheapest mastering I saw was $50 a song. Now I'm sure they earn their budget, however, it's not within mine, nor most peoples. So at least there's another option for us folks living on the ground. And I understand, but it's only a matter of time until those McDondald Ai's improve beyond most humans potential. if we last.

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by kurth

Depends on where you are. In my town we have 5 star restaurants for the tourist at $75bucks a plate...and taco stands, that are better, for the locals at about 2% of the price. When there's no tourist, the upscale restaurants fall like flies, and the taco stands endure year after year.

I understand your point, and I'm sure it's valid....if you're making a commercial endeavor, and someone's footing the bill. But about the cheapest mastering I saw was $50 a song. Now I'm sure they earn their budget, however, it's not within mine, nor most peoples. So at least there's another option for us folks living on the ground. And I understand, but it's only a matter of time until those McDondald Ai's improve beyond most humans potential. if we last.

The thing an AI will never get is an emotional response. Music is all about an emotional connection. A good mix and master is all about making that emotional connection as strong as possible.

But,I agree. It doesn’t make sense to pay for a great master if there is no potential ROI for your music. On the other hand, if you are trying to do something with your music, no one will ever value it more than you do. So you set the ceiling by determining how much you are willing to invest. And that’s not always just money, but in time & commitment too.

I came across an interesting stat when doing some research for an article. There are approximately 10,000 new songs released every day. Over half of them are skipped in the first 6 seconds (it gets even worse after 12 seconds). In those 6 seconds you know almost nothing about the song except the quality of the production. That is, how well it was recorded, mixed, and mastered. The mix matters & good enough is not good enough if you’re trying to be heard.

[kurth]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

The thing an AI will never get is an emotional response. Music is all about an emotional connection. A good mix and master is all about making that emotional connection as strong as possible.

But,I agree. It doesnÂ’t make sense to pay for a great master if there is no potential ROI for your music. On the other hand, if you are trying to do something with your music, no one will ever value it more than you do. So you set the ceiling by determining how much you are willing to invest. And thatÂ’s not always just money, but in time & commitment too.

I came across an interesting stat when doing some research for an article. There are approximately 10,000 new songs released every day. Over half of them are skipped in the first 6 seconds (it gets even worse after 12 seconds). In those 6 seconds you know almost nothing about the song except the quality of the production. That is, how well it was recorded, mixed, and mastered. The mix matters & good enough is not good enough if youÂ’re trying to be heard.

Yes I read that when you first posted it. It's humbling. Perhaps producers will have to work pro bono like lawyers for a percent of the cut. But only if they win. The real fact.... even more depressing.....is outside the US, no one is actually buying that music they don't even finish listening to. So there's not going to be any profits to be made in 10 years time anyway. I think I posted this in the thread where you posted the above. All of the media that's been digitized is no longer sustainable as a business model. That's why I still paint and make art, instead of photography and video....and also the reason I'm seriously investigating releasing my music on cassette. But those are only temporary solutions. I also fully expect cinema to be dead within 10 years. Not only theaters closing, but even streaming won't be able to support movie budgets. Even before a film is streamed, or released on blu ray, it's already pirated by insiders. In India just about every theater refilms the new releases for pirate release the first day. That's the fastest way for them to have subtitled films digitized. 99% of the people watch the bad pirated copy rather than buy a ticket. Music will be about live performance. It already is in Mexico. It's like the guy who told the buggy maker not to worry about henry ford....horses will always be around. And imagine when Ai can make songs and films on it's own. Well...it already can.

[b1j]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

The thing an AI will never get is an emotional response. Music is all about an emotional connection.

Now might be a good time to rewatch Bicentennial Man (Robin William, 1999). Not a dystopian doomsday story about AI taking over, but a parable about the irresistible drive to feel.

[Bob Womack]

I am a recording/mixing/mastering engineer. I don't fear artificial intelligence in my work. Why?

I've been using AI-based plug-ins for a decade now in audio post production for video and film. They are use especially for clean-up of damaged audio. When I first got into audio for film and video, lo! these forty-two years ago, a producer tried to put my zeal for audio quality in its place, or give me "perspective," by saying, "Look, how big is your TV/film screen? And how big is your speaker? You figure it out." The point was that capturing audio for film and video is often WAAAY secondary to capturing video. As a result, we deal with LOTS of bad audio.

When these clean-up plugs first came out, all my colleagues were saying, "Aren't you afraid for your job? Now anyone can insert a plug-in and clean up their own audio." It hasn't turned out that way at all. Yes, the AI plugs can often do a pretty good job. Many of them only have one knob. But what happened when they hit the scene was that the bar for excellent audio was raised, and raised way up by their very presence. Audio engineers were forced to learn them, learn to manipulated them, how to combine them, in complicated ways. Meanwhile, amateurs discovered that the plugs really aren't "plug and play." Someone who doesn't know how to manipulate and utilize it can paint himself into a corner with AI just as easily as he can with any other technology.

Then the AI plugs became more and more complicated to manipulate in order to provide a better product and it became the province of the professional to choose and manipulate them. What was supposed to democratize audio led down another rabbit hole of arcane, technical specialization and sophistication. Producers came to rely on this technology and its masters to bail out sub-par product even more.

What happened was the the AI weeded out the below-average engineers and made those who learned to manipulate it more desirable than ever to producers. When a producer has a problem, he probably knows, or knows of, an engineer who can fix it. And that is who he goes to.

That is what I've experienced.

Bob

[KevWind]

Boy a lot of doom and gloom bubbling up....

IMO neither song writers , music producers, mix or mastering engineers, or movie producers, are going anywhere any time soon ..

The horse and buggy and auto analogy doesn't really relate--- Because they are modes of transportation and are alway's subject to significant change based on the newest tech

The art world however is different,,,, nuff said ..

[kurth]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Boy a lot of doom and gloom bubbling up....

The horse and buggy and auto analogy doesn't really relate--- Because they are modes of transportation and are alway's subject to significant change based on the newest tech

of course it relates. It's called a paradigm change. Read Thomas Kuhn's The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. Or think Galileo's persecution by the establishment. Ai is no different...or possibly even more powerful. Whenever there's a change of this magnitude, 99.9% of the people are still holding on to the past and that includes all the scientist who are supposed to be ready to accept the evidence, but in practice, only delay the inevitable. In a short time we'll have 'art' ...or films released for mass consumption that are totally made by Ai. Conceived, written, and digitally created from scratch. They can do it now. I've already seen articles for Ai shorts. And I'm not talking about cartoonistic animation.

...this is big.

And no Kev....we haven't even gotten anywhere near the doom and gloom part yet. But it's in the news already. And that's why I have conflicted morals about using Ai for music. But ozone certainly worked for me.

Try it out and see if it works for you. I think that was the understated message of my post. Now I have to preface that I've only tried it on 3 songs but it was so impressive that I'm spending some time on how to work with the program and get the most out of it, not just pushing the start button. It might not work for some songs as well, or for some material.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by kurth

of course it relates.

I think only tangentially at most ---relates in that yes they are both a "change" But a change in how art is, or may be produced, is not in that same kind or category of the change in the common mode of transportation category, nor do believe it will have the amount replacement factor of the auto and horse.

And I do not see Ai in the art category , as a "Zero Sum Game" I think both can and will coexist ..

But ozone certainly worked for me.

Try it out and see if it works for you. I think that was the understated message of my post. Now I have to preface that I've only tried it on 3 songs but it was so impressive that I'm spending some time on how to work with the program and get the most out of it, not just pushing the start button. It might not work for some songs as well, or for some material.

Well that is good to note , and I might certainly give it whirl at some point, but for my amateur needs for my current publications I enjoy doing my own mastering.. IF I were looking to make serious commercial release I would hire it out ..As always YMMV

[kurth]

Kev...look at how art changed at the same time as science during the copernican revolution, and also during the einsteinian revolution. Both classic examples of a paradigm shift. The copernican revolution brought the likes of leonardo, and the einstein rev, abstract art. Ai is likely far more transformative because it will impact every aspect of our civilization. Most of us have a cognitive bias that makes seeing rapid change difficult. Normalcy Bias. That's why most people don't make it out of the burning theater. But I promise the match has been lit and the curtain in the corner is on fire.

What I like about music is I can ignore all that tripe for at least 3 or 4 minutes.

Now back to ozone...so far, what I like about ozone is it really separates the competing sonic spaces. Where before I was loosing alot, now it's retained. Much fuller mix. Still got some listening and testing, but so far it's very promising ...for me. My songs are guitar, usually 2 to 4 tracks and voice, with sparse instrumentation, for anyone who's in the same more or less boat.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by kurth

Kev...look at how art changed at the same time as science during the copernican revolution, and also during the einsteinian revolution. Both classic examples of a paradigm shift. The copernican revolution brought the likes of leonardo, and the einstein rev, abstract art. Ai is likely far more transformative because it will impact every aspect of our civilization. Most of us have a cognitive bias that makes seeing rapid change difficult. Normalcy Bias. That's why most people don't make it out of the burning theater. But I promise the match has been lit and the curtain in the corner is on fire.

What I like about music is I can ignore all that tripe for at least 3 or 4 minutes.

Now back to ozone...so far, what I like about ozone is it really separates the competing sonic spaces. Where before I was loosing alot, now it's retained. Much fuller mix. Still got some listening and testing, but so far it's very promising ...for me. My songs are guitar, usually 2 to 4 tracks and voice, with sparse instrumentation, for anyone who's in the same more or less boat.

Humm some apparently still some mis communication .
Lets see I can make it more clear.

That Ai will bring a change in music production mixing and mastering is inevitable

That ::

Sorry to say this for the producers....really I am...but your clock just ran out.
and--
But I promise the match has been lit and the curtain in the corner is on fire.

is IMO hyperbole and not soon likely. We clearly disagree on the rate and amount of impact of Ai on music production , so lets just agree to disagree

As for Ozone separates the competing "sonic spaces" that is great that it helps with that, but FYI "carving out sonic space" for competing elements to be more clear and distinct and thus give a "fuller mix", is among knowledgeable mix engineers, a standard practice . It is basically a function of panning eq compression and volume adjustment and judgement .

[kurth]

Originally Posted by KevWind

As for Ozone separates the competing "sonic spaces" that is great that it helps with that, but FYI "carving out sonic space" for competing elements to be more clear and distinct and thus give a "fuller mix", is among knowledgeable mix engineers, a standard practice . It is basically a function of panning eq compression and volume adjustment and judgement .

I like sitting in my comfy chair too. And of course... that's what sound engineers have always done...with years of experience and nice salaries. But at some point in the algorithms advancement , it will even surpass the most experienced human counterpoint, and at $129...or even less. And as fast as they are throwing exorbitant amounts of time, energy, and money at the problems of Ai...I'd guess 5 years max before it radically changes the landscape of digitized art, and a 1000 other things. Being incredulous doesn't make it not so.

...so it's a simple experiment that can be done today. Throw together an 8 to 10 track multi vocal instrumental piece and master it down yourself, and then see what ozone does in comparison. I'm just getting started and I'm discovering it's alittle harder that just pushing a button but at the very least , as they even say, it's a starting point....and I can see it's a great tool for learning. But soon...it'll be just pushing a button.

...and a real tangential offshoot of Ai in art is.... and even more so in science...it's going to completely destroy the concept of intellectual property. But that's another topic for another day.