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  #1  
Old 08-07-2017, 06:10 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Default Baggs Lyric & PUTW UST Blend, Directly Recorded

https://soundcloud.com/guitaniac/io-lyric2

This Lyric & PUTW I/O UST blend sounded so good through my Fishman SoloAmp on Saturday night that I thought I'd do a direct recording of the same blend (about 40% UST) to see how it sounds directly recorded. Piezo quack wasn't an issue in the live setting, but I was expecting a direct recording to be less forgiving of the UST quack in the blended signal. Sure enough, the crinkling cellophane sound which I identify as piezo quack shows up on the strumming samples.

For direct recording, I'm getting better results from the iRig Acoustic stage mic, with just a bit of UST blended in. That rig has proven too feedback prone for my stage needs, however. The Lyric/UST blend works better for stage use. Albeit, I'm using substantial EQ to get the desired tone from the Lyric.
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Old 08-07-2017, 10:15 AM
MrErikJ MrErikJ is offline
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That sounds really good! Are you using the UST to supplement the lows that the Lyric can't provide? Are you running the PUTW to the endpin preamp? I'm curious if bypassing that preamp wouldn't buy you a little more headroom, assuming you have an outboard preamp.
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  #3  
Old 08-07-2017, 11:39 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Originally Posted by MrErikJ View Post
That sounds really good! Are you using the UST to supplement the lows that the Lyric can't provide? Are you running the PUTW to the endpin preamp? I'm curious if bypassing that preamp wouldn't buy you a little more headroom, assuming you have an outboard preamp.
I'm using a Zoom A3 to blend. My I/O UST is passive, so I have to take it to the pickup input. The A3's pickup input has enough input impedance to match the UST well. The only EQ adjustment on the UST is a mild 3db cut at 1.6kHz. The Q is 1 for that cut.

The A3's mic input has a compound jack, so I can run the Lyric signal through a Boss GE-7 graphic equalizer, then take a regular mono cable to the mic input.

The Lyric is overly muddy and boomy in my particular guitar, so I need some substantial EQ adjustments for it.

My EQ settings on the Lyric are roughly -3db at 100Hz, -10db at 200Hz, -4db at 400Hz, -5db at 800 Hz, -10db at 1.6kHz, -5db at 3.2KHz and 0db at 6.4kHz.

I experimented with using the A3's parametric EQ to bump up the bass on the UST signal, but my ear preferred just leaving it flat on the bass end. I'm not a fan of exaggerated bass.


I'm quite pleased with my live sound with this blend, but I suspected that it would be a little quacky when recorded directly. To my ear, the Lyric by itself is a little hollow sounding. I'm adding some UST signal to give it more focus and directness for my live sound. The UST signal probably helps with feedback rejection also.
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Old 08-07-2017, 11:52 AM
MrErikJ MrErikJ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
I'm using a Zoom A3 to blend. My I/O UST is passive, so I have to take it to the pickup input. The A3's pickup input has enough input impedance to match the UST well. The only EQ adjustment on the UST is a mild 3db cut at 1.6kHz. The Q is 1 for that cut.

The A3's mic input has a compound jack, so I can run the Lyric signal through a Boss GE-7 graphic equalizer, then take a regular mono cable to the mic input.

The Lyric is overly muddy and boomy in my particular guitar, so I need some substantial EQ adjustments for it.

My EQ settings on the Lyric are roughly -3db at 100Hz, -10db at 200Hz, -4db at 400Hz, -5db at 800 Hz, -10db at 1.6kHz, -5db at 3.2KHz and 0db at 6.4kHz.

I experimented with using the A3's parametric EQ to bump up the bass on the UST signal, but my ear preferred just leaving it flat on the bass end. I'm not a fan of exaggerated bass.


I'm quite pleased with my live sound with this blend, but I suspected that it would be a little quacky when recorded directly. To my ear, the Lyric by itself is a little hollow sounding. I'm adding some UST signal to give it more focus and directness for my live sound. The UST signal probably helps with feedback rejection also.
It's an impressive combination! Way to go!
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  #5  
Old 08-07-2017, 03:23 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
https://soundcloud.com/guitaniac/io-lyric2

This Lyric & PUTW I/O UST blend sounded so good through my Fishman SoloAmp on Saturday night that I thought I'd do a direct recording of the same blend (about 40% UST) to see how it sounds directly recorded. Piezo quack wasn't an issue in the live setting, but I was expecting a direct recording to be less forgiving of the UST quack in the blended signal. Sure enough, the crinkling cellophane sound which I identify as piezo quack shows up on the strumming samples.

For direct recording, I'm getting better results from the iRig Acoustic stage mic, with just a bit of UST blended in. That rig has proven too feedback prone for my stage needs, however. The Lyric/UST blend works better for stage use. Albeit, I'm using substantial EQ to get the desired tone from the Lyric.
Glad you posted this! First off, the sound is excellent. I would love that tone live.

Second, it's good timing that you posted this because I am considering going back to the Anthem but this time going for the full Anthem over the SL. I was looking at it online and it looks as though with the full Anthem, the two pickups simply plug into the preamp/sound hole control module with mini adaptors. I am not sure what they would be called. I don't think they are mini TRS cables but regardless, they are not wired to the module.

Here's my thought process.. The thing I have always disliked about the Anthem is the Element. To me, the Element is one of the least pleasing UST tones available. I know it's supposed to be more responsive with picking up the top but it has this extremely unnatural high end/presence to it that's easy to pick out. I don't notice this with other UST designs. When this is paired with the tru-mic, which has a high end presence of its own, it can be overkill. Also, the main criticism of the Anthem seems to be that it can change the unplugged tone, which I consider to be a direct result of the Element. I noticed a change with my Taylor and never noticed a change when the Matrix was in my guitar.

I am actually considering getting the Anthem and then trying different UST pickups with it. My thinking is, the Element is not wired to anything and simply has the plug so if I can get that same plug end for other USTs, it should be a simple experiment. I can always go back to the Element if I decide the experimentation was not beneficial. My only concern is somehow hurting the module that Baggs provides by trying different UST's but I can't see this being an issue. I would also have to find a way to get one of those plug ends to try. It looks like it could be tight wiring. The Matrix seems like the obvious first choice since I can find that not wired to anything and the PUTW is also an option but I worry about the impedance problem.
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Old 08-07-2017, 03:38 PM
rokdog49 rokdog49 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petty1818 View Post
Glad you posted this! First off, the sound is excellent. I would love that tone live.

Second, it's good timing that you posted this because I am considering going back to the Anthem but this time going for the full Anthem over the SL. I was looking at it online and it looks as though with the full Anthem, the two pickups simply plug into the preamp/sound hole control module with mini adaptors. I am not sure what they would be called. I don't think they are mini TRS cables but regardless, they are not wired to the module.

Here's my thought process.. The thing I have always disliked about the Anthem is the Element. To me, the Element is one of the least pleasing UST tones available. I know it's supposed to be more responsive with picking up the top but it has this extremely unnatural high end/presence to it that's easy to pick out. I don't notice this with other UST designs. When this is paired with the tru-mic, which has a high end presence of its own, it can be overkill. Also, the main criticism of the Anthem seems to be that it can change the unplugged tone, which I consider to be a direct result of the Element. I noticed a change with my Taylor and never noticed a change when the Matrix was in my guitar.

I am actually considering getting the Anthem and then trying different UST pickups with it. My thinking is, the Element is not wired to anything and simply has the plug so if I can get that same plug end for other USTs, it should be a simple experiment. I can always go back to the Element if I decide the experimentation was not beneficial. My only concern is somehow hurting the module that Baggs provides by trying different UST's but I can't see this being an issue. I would also have to find a way to get one of those plug ends to try. It looks like it could be tight wiring. The Matrix seems like the obvious first choice since I can find that not wired to anything and the PUTW is also an option but I worry about the impedance problem.
I don't share your experiences witht the Element Tru-Mic combo in the Anthem SL at all.
I guess my Fishman Platinum Pro D.I. / EQ is doing it's job.
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  #7  
Old 08-07-2017, 03:44 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Originally Posted by rokdog49 View Post
I don't share your experiences witht the Element Tru-Mic combo in the Anthem SL at all.
I guess my Fishman Platinum Pro D.I. / EQ is doing it's job.
A lot of people like the SL, it's all subjective. Before the Anthem and when UST pickups were pretty much the main pickup choice, I avoided Baggs simply based on the Element. It just has a weird tonality to it. The SL pickup was okay in my Taylor but the tru-mic was just too prominent and I found it impossible to dial out.

I should add this, some pickups just don't work for certain guitars. Not writing off the SL, just not a great choice for my Taylor. I bet in a warmer sounding guitar, I would love it. I have a Larrivee with a K&K and the Anthem SL sitting around so maybe I will give that a try.

Last edited by Petty1818; 08-07-2017 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 08-07-2017, 04:00 PM
MrErikJ MrErikJ is offline
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Originally Posted by Petty1818 View Post
Glad you posted this! First off, the sound is excellent. I would love that tone live.

Here's my thought process.. The thing I have always disliked about the Anthem is the Element. To me, the Element is one of the least pleasing UST tones available. I know it's supposed to be more responsive with picking up the top but it has this extremely unnatural high end/presence to it that's easy to pick out. I don't notice this with other UST designs. When this is paired with the tru-mic, which has a high end presence of its own, it can be overkill. Also, the main criticism of the Anthem seems to be that it can change the unplugged tone, which I consider to be a direct result of the Element. I noticed a change with my Taylor and never noticed a change when the Matrix was in my guitar.

I am actually considering getting the Anthem and then trying different UST pickups with it. My thinking is, the Element is not wired to anything and simply has the plug so if I can get that same plug end for other USTs, it should be a simple experiment. I can always go back to the Element if I decide the experimentation was not beneficial. My only concern is somehow hurting the module that Baggs provides by trying different UST's but I can't see this being an issue. I would also have to find a way to get one of those plug ends to try. It looks like it could be tight wiring. The Matrix seems like the obvious first choice since I can find that not wired to anything and the PUTW is also an option but I worry about the impedance problem.
I think there's a crossover circuit involved that makes it a little more complicated than what you state here. I'm not a fan of the Element myself (I prefer the LB6) but the Anthem is a condensed version of your typical UST/mic combo, intended to get you the best tone easily. You could use a Lyric & UST in stereo (like guitaniac did) but I don't think you can just swap out the Element in the Anthem all that easily.
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Old 08-07-2017, 04:30 PM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Hi Petty,

It sounds like a fun experiment which you have in mind. If memory serves correctly, someone on the forum has already successfully substituted the K&K Pure Mini for the Element UST in an Anthem SL system.

I believe the mini plug which connects the Element UST is a mono plug, if its the same type of connector plug that I remember from a barn door style Baggs iMix system which I once used.

One caveat is that the pickup must be somewhat similar to the Element UST in its passive output level, since the Element preamp will have a fixed gain and would likely be overdriven by the typically hot output of a ceramic piezo UST. The Matrix and the PUTW I/O USTs are film piezo USTs, so they'd be more likely candidates.

Its interesting to note that the PUTW I/O UST is almost as hot as the Pure Mini SBT - at least it was in one of my guitars which was equipped with those two pickups at one time. (The output level of a passive UST will vary somewhat with mechanical aspects of the installation.)

In any event, if the Pure Mini can be successfully substituted for the Element, its likely that the PUTW I/O UST will work also. At least it won't be overdriving the Element preamp. Hopefully, the Tru-Mic level will be adjustable enough to balance properly with whatever pickup you choose.


Another possible caveat with the Anthem's UST preamp is that there may be some internal EQ applied to the signal which may be flattering to the Element UST but not the substitute pickup.
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Old 08-07-2017, 04:39 PM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrErikJ View Post
I think there's a crossover circuit involved that makes it a little more complicated than what you state here. I'm not a fan of the Element myself (I prefer the LB6) but the Anthem is a condensed version of your typical UST/mic combo, intended to get you the best tone easily. You could use a Lyric & UST in stereo (like guitaniac did) but I don't think you can just swap out the Element in the Anthem all that easily.
Yes, mixing and matching pickups and dedicated preamps can be a dicey propostition. My biggest screw-up was trying to use a Baggs LB6 with a Fishman Prefix preamp. Anything beyond the mildest string attack caused an overdriven preamp and massive distortion. The end result was that the Prefix system went on ebay, the LB6 stayed in the guitar and I entered the fun world of outboard preamps.
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Old 08-07-2017, 08:59 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrErikJ View Post
I think there's a crossover circuit involved that makes it a little more complicated than what you state here. I'm not a fan of the Element myself (I prefer the LB6) but the Anthem is a condensed version of your typical UST/mic combo, intended to get you the best tone easily. You could use a Lyric & UST in stereo (like guitaniac did) but I don't think you can just swap out the Element in the Anthem all that easily.
I am not sure if the crossover design would really matter in this case. It's nothing really scientific, Baggs has just used the same approach that B-Band did with their A2.2; the UST is carrying the lower frequencies with the true-mic carrying the higher frequencies. I totally see what you are saying about mixing and matching different pickups but I do wonder how different a passive Matrix is to an Element for example. Both are UST designs, you would think they would both work well.
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Old 08-07-2017, 09:02 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
Hi Petty,

It sounds like a fun experiment which you have in mind. If memory serves correctly, someone on the forum has already successfully substituted the K&K Pure Mini for the Element UST in an Anthem SL system.

I believe the mini plug which connects the Element UST is a mono plug, if its the same type of connector plug that I remember from a barn door style Baggs iMix system which I once used.

One caveat is that the pickup must be somewhat similar to the Element UST in its passive output level, since the Element preamp will have a fixed gain and would likely be overdriven by the typically hot output of a ceramic piezo UST. The Matrix and the PUTW I/O USTs are film piezo USTs, so they'd be more likely candidates.

Its interesting to note that the PUTW I/O UST is almost as hot as the Pure Mini SBT - at least it was in one of my guitars which was equipped with those two pickups at one time. (The output level of a passive UST will vary somewhat with mechanical aspects of the installation.)

In any event, if the Pure Mini can be successfully substituted for the Element, its likely that the PUTW I/O UST will work also. At least it won't be overdriving the Element preamp. Hopefully, the Tru-Mic level will be adjustable enough to balance properly with whatever pickup you choose.


Another possible caveat with the Anthem's UST preamp is that there may be some internal EQ applied to the signal which may be flattering to the Element UST but not the substitute pickup.
Yeah, I would think that the Matrix would probably be fine. The PUTW I have heard is a bit more picky about having a preamp close by but the Baggs module/preamp would probably be good. If anything, the PUTW could suffer from having too weak of a signal. PUTW is not readily available in Canada but I feel like of any company, they would be willing to do a custom order for me. I bet I could ask them to wire the I/O UST to the mono mini plug. I just see this as being an extremely easy experiment. The hardest part is finding a Matrix or I/O UST that's not already wired to a jack or preamp.
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Old 08-07-2017, 10:59 PM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Originally Posted by Petty1818 View Post
Yeah, I would think that the Matrix would probably be fine. The PUTW I have heard is a bit more picky about having a preamp close by but the Baggs module/preamp would probably be good. If anything, the PUTW could suffer from having too weak of a signal. PUTW is not readily available in Canada but I feel like of any company, they would be willing to do a custom order for me. I bet I could ask them to wire the I/O UST to the mono mini plug. I just see this as being an extremely easy experiment. The hardest part is finding a Matrix or I/O UST that's not already wired to a jack or preamp.
David Enke does custom jobs like connecting the mini-plug you want to a pickup. Be sure that you know what size plug that you need, as he may not be familiar with the Anthem system plugs. You can reach him through his new company.

https://opentosourcesensors.com/

Someone informed me recently, in one of these AGF threads, that David and his former wife Annie have divorced and that she has taken over the running of PUTW. He is no doubt supplying her with pickups, but for a special order you'd probably do better to contact him directly at the new business.

As for the Matrix, you can buy the transducer separate, I believe. It doesn't come pre-wired to anything as its designed to be connected to the preamp at the time of installation.

Here's an ebay add for the wide format Matrix transducer:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fishman-Acou...EAAOSwUKxYdkTr

You can also find the narrow format on ebay.
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