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  #31  
Old 08-04-2017, 09:36 AM
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martingitdave martingitdave is online now
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Default How loud is the output on your Taylor ES2?

Cross post:

This is what I recall discussing with my local Taylor dealer. It is also possible to back the pressure of the piezos off a bit. That subdued the initial issues I had with ES2. You see, I rebalanced every ES2 system after purchase. So, I never had the harsh tone issues.

That said, with a bone saddle the old ES2 was harsh and brittle to my ears. So, I suspect that the new preamp will cover for a lot of sins.

Honestly, I loved the ES2 system enough to stick with Taylor for a while. I would install the ES2 in a Martin of that was a possibility. The beauty is that it is simple, effective, and has NO detrimental effect on acoustic tone. There's a lot to like about ES2.
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  #32  
Old 08-04-2017, 10:06 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nama Ensou View Post
Quoted for truth!

Anyone running sound, on any level, would do well to at least learn signal chain basics 101.
Yes, but some of the more popular open mics manage to be popular (for various reasons) despite the lack of a sound person with signal chain smarts. Sometimes its helpful for the players to have some signal chain smarts of their own, and to be able to offer guidance when needed.


I recall one very popular open mic where the volunteer soundman was using an old Fishman G preamp (fixed gain of 9db, or something close to that) with all the guitars, including the active system guitars. One guitar was severely overdriving the preamp and I had to tell him to just take the signal directly into a line input. (He probably presumed the distortion was coming from the guitar itself.)

This open mic had previously employed the host's Fishman Platinum preamp (with an adjustable gain/trim control) with all the guitars for purposes of EQ adjustments, level adjustments and impedance matching (with the passive pickups). When that preamp got stolen, they mistakenly hoped the Fishman G could do the same job. Live and learn. That extremely beloved open mic would never have come into existence if the host (and his soundman buddy) had had to pass a signal chain exam. Fortunately. they were willing to just jump in and learn on the job.
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  #33  
Old 08-04-2017, 10:30 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martingitdave View Post
Cross post:

This is what I recall discussing with my local Taylor dealer. It is also possible to back the pressure of the piezos off a bit. That subdued the initial issues I had with ES2. You see, I rebalanced every ES2 system after purchase. So, I never had the harsh tone issues.

That said, with a bone saddle the old ES2 was harsh and brittle to my ears. So, I suspect that the new preamp will cover for a lot of sins.

Honestly, I loved the ES2 system enough to stick with Taylor for a while. I would install the ES2 in a Martin of that was a possibility. The beauty is that it is simple, effective, and has NO detrimental effect on acoustic tone. There's a lot to like about ES2.
Yes, the ES2 seems to satisfy the needs for higher feedback resistance (than an SBT or mic) and pleasing amplified tone without any compromise to the guitar's acoustic tone. The possible inconvenience of a somewhat lower output seems like a small price to pay for all that.
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  #34  
Old 08-04-2017, 10:53 AM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
Yes, the ES2 seems to satisfy the needs for higher feedback resistance (than an SBT or mic) and pleasing amplified tone without any compromise to the guitar's acoustic tone. The possible inconvenience of a somewhat lower output seems like a small price to pay for all that.
That's right! Also, as of yet, we don't know how much lower in output the new ES2 may be, but isn't it really a moot point? All anyone has to do is adjust the Input Gain of their preamp, mixer or amp to get the correct input gain to drive whatever device the ES2 is plugged in to. I can't imagine their new ES2 rendition would be so low in its output to be a problem for anyone with a basic familiarity with sound gear. The original ES2 was "HOT", so there is plenty of room to lower output while still retaining a "hot" signal but maybe now with more headroom.
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2017 Huss & Dalton TD-R
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2017 Pisgah 12" Walnut Tubaphone 5-String
2016 Deering Sierra Maple Flathead 5-String
2016 Taylor 614ce ES2
2016 Taylor 322ce ES2
2016 Martin D-18
2016 Martin D Jr B-Band A1.2N-1470
2016 Taylor GS Mini-e Koa ES2
2015 Taylor 618e ES2
2015 Taylor 356ce 12-String ES2
2014 Martin HD-28 Trance Amulet M-VT
2007 Ovation VXT

Last edited by SpruceTop; 08-04-2017 at 11:03 AM.
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  #35  
Old 08-04-2017, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by SpruceTop View Post
That's right! Also, as of yet, we don't know how much lower in output the new ES2 may be, but isn't it really a moot point? All anyone has to do is adjust the Input Gain of their preamp, mixer or amp to get the correct input gain to drive whatever device the ES2 is plugged in to. I can't imagine their new ES2 rendition would be so low in its output to be a problem for anyone with a basic familiarity with sound gear. The original ES2 was "HOT", so there is plenty of room to lower output while still retaining a "hot" signal but maybe now with more headroom.


Agreed! As long as the signal is low noise, it should be fine.
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  #36  
Old 08-04-2017, 03:59 PM
Nama Ensou Nama Ensou is offline
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Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
Fortunately. they were willing to just jump in and learn on the job.
Just like real life! That's called on the job learning, the way most of us learned, or still are.
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  #37  
Old 08-04-2017, 04:43 PM
alohachris alohachris is offline
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Default Dual Source Systems Are THE WAY TO GO

Aloha cybershot,

Don't Call Taylor! I have never liked ANY version of Taylor's ES Systems. They cannot compare to Dual-Source Systems you can put together yourself at all. Taylor makes really decent guitars & lousy pickups. Mic makers don't make speakers. Speaker company's don't make mixers - at least successfully. A guitar maker like Taylor should stick with what they do best - guitars - not electronics. The ES System has been problematic on a large scale from day one.

Plus the ES-systems make you put holes in the side of your guitar. ES systems are also proprietary & do NOT allow you to experiment or add other brands or types of products down the road.

The only way to keep an acoustic guitar sounding natural through live amplification is to add a mic to the mix. To do that, you need the right controls. You can put together much better than the ES System provides.

Therefore, Dual-Source Systems are THE WAY TO GO.

If you're gigging solo regularly, a dual-source system is absolutely necessary, IMO. Mainly for the room control. I've been using (even building) these systems for 47 years. I would never play out with a single pickup.

If you're playing at home, just use a quality mic. Or if you're after a single pickup, the K&K is the most versatile & most "natural" sounding I have used. It works very well with any other source. Not so with Taylor ES systems.

Of course, you need a blending preamp or quality mixer with great EQ that allows you to EQ the two sources separately, then blend, pan & sum.

I have K&K P/U - AKG 416 internal mic combo's in my three gigging guitars. THE BLENDING CONTROLS I USE are on my Pendulum SPS-1 blending preamp with fully onboard parametric EQ.

Once I started using the SPS-1, I eliminated all feedback in every live situation and could truly control & maximize my live amplified sound at every gig.

Quality Alternatives: The DPA 4061 is another great internal mic to mix w/ a pickup. Grace offers some great blending preamps as well. Soundcraft & A&H offer the best control among small mixers.

K&K, PUTW, Trance, & Dazzo all make very good SBT pickups that sound great with mic's. If you like natural acoustic sound, I suggest you stay away from only using single pickups alone, especially UST's & soundhole pickups - the least natural of all. Add a mic! Avoid the ES - anyway iteration of it.

Good Luck, cyber!

alohachris

Last edited by alohachris; 08-05-2017 at 01:18 AM.
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  #38  
Old 08-04-2017, 08:21 PM
ii Cybershot ii ii Cybershot ii is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alohachris View Post
Aloha cybershot,

Don't Call Taylor! I have never liked ANY version of Taylor's ES Systems. They cannot compare to Dual-Source Systems at all. Taylor makes decent guitars & lousy pickups. Plus the ES-systems make you put holes in the side of your guitar. ES systems are also proprietary & do allow you to experiment or add stuff down the road.

The only way to keep an acoustic guitar sounding natural through live amplification is to add a mic to the mix. To do that, you need the right controls.

Therefore, Dual-Source Systems are THE WAY TO GO.

If you're gigging solo regularly, a dual source is truly necessary, IMO. Mainly for the room control. I've been using (even building) these systems for 47 years. I would never play out with a single pickup.

If you're playing at home, just use a quality mic. Or if you're after a single pickup, the K&K is the most versatile & most "natural" sounding I have used.

But you need a blending preamp or quality mixer with great EQ that allows you to EQ the two sources separately, then blend, pan & sum.

I have K&K P/U - AKG 416 internal mic combo's in my three gigging guitars. THE BLENDING CONTROLS I USE are a Pendulum SPS-1 blending preamp with fully onboard parametric EQ.

Once I started using the SPS-1, I eliminated all feedback in every live situation and could truly control & maximize my live amplified sound at every gig.

Quality Alternatives: The DPA 4016 is another great internal mic to mix w/ a pickup. Grace offers some great blending preamps as well. Soundcraft & A&H offer the best control among small mixer.

K&K, PUTW, Trance, & Dazzo all make very good SBT pickups. If you like natural acoustic sound, stay away from single pickups, especially UST's & soundhole pickups - the least natural of all. Add a mic!

Good Luck, cyber!

alohachris
Thanks for the info! Yes I think if I were a professional giggin musician I would invest in a dual source system. I really like the D-Tar Multisource which is also called the Seymour Duncan Wavelength Duo!
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  #39  
Old 08-04-2017, 08:36 PM
ii Cybershot ii ii Cybershot ii is offline
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UPDATE:

I called Taylor today here are the results:

-For my 714ce, the change to a new preamp began in September of 2016. I stupidly didn't ask if this was the same for every other guitar but maybe we can assume it's similar.
-The changes to the preamp were mostly an adjustment on the G and D strings, and to create more balance across all strings. According to the employee I spoke with, the overall output of the new preamp should be roughly the same. They made the changes due to various issues with the G and D strings like weird resonances. For example, someone in this thread had an issue that would probably be addressed by the new preamp: http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=430496
-They said the new ES2 preamp should definitely still be louder than any ES1 and recommended I go to an authorized Taylor repair place while the guitar is under warranty.

Also, the string spacing on my 714ce's 1 3/4" nut is 1 1/2" from E to e. On every other Taylor I tried it is 1 17/32" which is Martin's standard as well. I asked if they made a change in 2017 and he said no, and that all Taylor nuts are hand cut so there is some variance expected.
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  #40  
Old 08-04-2017, 11:27 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ii Cybershot ii View Post
UPDATE:

I called Taylor today here are the results:

-For my 714ce, the change to a new preamp began in September of 2016. I stupidly didn't ask if this was the same for every other guitar but maybe we can assume it's similar.
-The changes to the preamp were mostly an adjustment on the G and D strings, and to create more balance across all strings. According to the employee I spoke with, the overall output of the new preamp should be roughly the same. They made the changes due to various issues with the G and D strings like weird resonances. For example, someone in this thread had an issue that would probably be addressed by the new preamp: http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=430496
-They said the new ES2 preamp should definitely still be louder than any ES1 and recommended I go to an authorized Taylor repair place while the guitar is under warranty.

Also, the string spacing on my 714ce's 1 3/4" nut is 1 1/2" from E to e. On every other Taylor I tried it is 1 17/32" which is Martin's standard as well. I asked if they made a change in 2017 and he said no, and that all Taylor nuts are hand cut so there is some variance expected.
You can see my theories on why the G and D strings often have a string-ping/sitar-effect. This isn't only limited to Taylors but can happen on any brand of guitar with or without a pickup/preamp system.
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2017 Huss & Dalton TD-R
2017 Bart Reiter Regent Whyte Laydie 5-String
2017 Pisgah 12" Walnut Tubaphone 5-String
2016 Deering Sierra Maple Flathead 5-String
2016 Taylor 614ce ES2
2016 Taylor 322ce ES2
2016 Martin D-18
2016 Martin D Jr B-Band A1.2N-1470
2016 Taylor GS Mini-e Koa ES2
2015 Taylor 618e ES2
2015 Taylor 356ce 12-String ES2
2014 Martin HD-28 Trance Amulet M-VT
2007 Ovation VXT

Last edited by SpruceTop; 08-05-2017 at 09:59 AM.
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  #41  
Old 08-05-2017, 07:31 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ii Cybershot ii View Post
UPDATE:

I called Taylor today here are the results:

-For my 714ce, the change to a new preamp began in September of 2016. I stupidly didn't ask if this was the same for every other guitar but maybe we can assume it's similar.
-The changes to the preamp were mostly an adjustment on the G and D strings, and to create more balance across all strings. According to the employee I spoke with, the overall output of the new preamp should be roughly the same. They made the changes due to various issues with the G and D strings like weird resonances. For example, someone in this thread had an issue that would probably be addressed by the new preamp: http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=430496
-They said the new ES2 preamp should definitely still be louder than any ES1 and recommended I go to an authorized Taylor repair place while the guitar is under warranty.

Also, the string spacing on my 714ce's 1 3/4" nut is 1 1/2" from E to e. On every other Taylor I tried it is 1 17/32" which is Martin's standard as well. I asked if they made a change in 2017 and he said no, and that all Taylor nuts are hand cut so there is some variance expected.
Thanks for the follow-up, Cybershot. Its interesting to learn that a lowered output level is not an intended result of the preamp update.

On the downside, that means that your suspicions have been correct and your ES2 system is not operating as intended. If you decide that a repair is worth the hassle, please let us know how that goes for you. I presume the repair folks would be able to tell you why your ES2's output is uncharacteristically low. They could also tell you if a lower output has been a common occurrence with the updated preamps. Your experience with testing in-store Taylors would seem to point in that direction.

Last edited by guitaniac; 08-05-2017 at 07:41 AM.
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  #42  
Old 08-06-2017, 07:02 PM
ii Cybershot ii ii Cybershot ii is offline
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As a further update, I recorded both the ES1 and ES2 direct into the line-in on my laptop. Definitely a crude test. Both systems with everything at 100%, and the ES2's waveform looked to be about 90% of the ES1, which is much closer than I thought. Definitely the metallic nature of the ES1 lends itself to cutting through when used through an amplifier. The ES2 sounds extremely natural, like a microphone. It's a noisy little bugger picking up all the string squeaks and body taps.

Also worth noting is I used the Fishman Matrix VT in this test as well, and it was about equal to both of them. So again the ear test failed through a guitar amp likely due to the very quacky nature of the Matrix in comparison to the other two.

As it stands, I'm not 100% sold that my ES2 is "broken" and I'm also not 100% sold that this new preamp isn't quieter than the old preamp.

Will keep updating later...
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