The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 01-19-2013, 05:11 PM
MarkVonShief MarkVonShief is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 14
Default Standard notation + tabs or just std notation

So I'm learning jazz and a big part of that is fluidity on the neck. I'm very clunky on the neck but working to improve.

I have three Andrew Green books, the first being "Jazz Guitar Technique" - lots of exercises to learn the neck, move back and forth between strings, lots and lots of exercises. Great book, I'm exceedingly slow in the exercises, though, because they're in standard notation. I have found out that reading music for guitar is quite different that reading it for piano, as there are many locations on the neck for any particular note. This is part of the magic, But Man - it is PAINFUL. With piano I could site read and the fingers knew the keys and even if I never saw a piece, I could go through it slowly and then build into the music.

Now my goal is to read and understand standard notation for guitar and build the fluidity, but to get into the exercises I have taken to transcribing them to tabs to get me in the ballpark. I'll do the exercises with both sheets on the stand and go back and forth - still slowly and still clunky, but I have an idea about where and when from the tabs. The goal, though, is standard notation.

Is this a bad thing? Am I committing a cardinal sin that will set me back by doing this? I'm all about learning here, I need to make sure that I can still get to where I want to be.

I know that a lot of folks who are on this forum teach - I'm really looking forward to what their experience says.

thanks - Mark
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-19-2013, 06:59 PM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 10,189
Default

Wanna learn jazz? No tabs. Go cold turkey. You will never see tab on a jazz lead sheet.
__________________
Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:

http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-19-2013, 07:03 PM
Glen. Glen. is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 298
Default

If you can manage to live on notation, do it. I regret being a lazy *** :-D
__________________
Larrivée L-02 Ltd Ed Bearclaw Sitka over Sapele satin finish
Tanglewood Evolution Exotic Koa S AAA Sitka top
Epiphone AJ-10 All laminate beater
Jay Turser JTA-EGL Eagle very pretty guitar
Epiphone Les Paul Standard Limited Edition the mandatory electric
Yamaha C40 Classical

Some of My Videos:
Halfway Home Albatross Make You Feel My Love Little Things Wonderwall
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-19-2013, 07:11 PM
HHP HHP is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 29,351
Default

Use whatever gets you where you want to be the easiest and fastest. The music is not the paper, notation or tab, its what's in your head and fingers.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-19-2013, 08:12 PM
stanron stanron is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,428
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkVonShief View Post
I have found out that reading music for guitar is quite different that reading it for piano, as there are many locations on the neck for any particular note. This is part of the magic, But Man - it is PAINFUL. With piano I could site read and the fingers knew the keys and even if I never saw a piece, I could go through it slowly and then build into the music.

Now my goal is to read and understand standard notation for guitar and build the fluidity, but to get into the exercises I have taken to transcribing them to tabs to get me in the ballpark. I'll do the exercises with both sheets on the stand and go back and forth - still slowly and still clunky, but I have an idea about where and when from the tabs. The goal, though, is standard notation.

Is this a bad thing? Am I committing a cardinal sin that will set me back by doing this? I'm all about learning here, I need to make sure that I can still get to where I want to be.

I know that a lot of folks who are on this forum teach - I'm really looking forward to what their experience says.


thanks - Mark
I understand the difficulty you describe. Most of the reading I've done has been for the fiddle. The fiddle has a tuning where all strings are the same interval apart and the stuff I was doing was all first position so there was only one place for each note except, perhaps, for the open strings. Reading or notating for the guitar is a bit of a challenge, and my playing ability is faster than my reading so I know I'll never be able to sight read well, but the thing is, perseverance will pay. In a way, transcribing to tab requires you to read the notation so you are practicing reading when you do that. So just keep doing it. Eventually it will get easier.

Here's a little edit. Notating stuff you play exercises the same knowledge as involved in reading but with a kind of reversed flow. This might help.

Last edited by stanron; 01-19-2013 at 08:19 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-19-2013, 09:51 PM
MarkVonShief MarkVonShief is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 14
Default

Thanks for the replies, everyone. The majority seem to say that I need to get to reading standard notation with some variety on getting there.

@HHP - While I believe you that the music is in my head and fingers, it has a really hard time getting from my head to my fingers. I'm trying to unlock all of that and get off this chorded-out stuff I've been doing all my life. For now, I need to follow and learn from the masters.

@mr Beaumont - I think you're right, I'm not sure I'm good enough to even get out of the gate to go cold turkey. Maybe it's just like quitting smoking - got to set a "quit tabs" date.

Lots of stuff resonates in all of your replies. Thanks to all - Mark
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-19-2013, 09:59 PM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 10,189
Default

If you can read at all, just do it...jazz reading is a breeze...most charts stay on the staff, all you gotta look for is some tricky syncopations...and you'll soon realize if you see it in one jazz tune, you'll see it in ten others...it's easy to go cold turkey, as ere is simply no tab out there for this stuff anyway, as its not a guitar centric music.


I had to read through a few tarrega pieces today with a student. Now that was something...
__________________
Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:

http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-20-2013, 01:12 AM
815C 815C is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The Hills Of Tennessee
Posts: 4,098
Default

Stevie Wonder

Ray Charles

Reading is good, helpful, valuable - you should do it.

But keep in mind that a whole lot of great music came from folks who couldn't read.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-20-2013, 01:49 AM
Paikon Paikon is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Thessaloniki Greece
Posts: 1,814
Default

I vote for standard notation too but imo its best to take it slowly ,learn easier pieces which will help you build a technique, learn the notes which will also give you the sense of achievement of actually performing the piece and not just mess around with it.
i hope it makes sense
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-20-2013, 02:02 AM
71jasper 71jasper is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 785
Default

You have to speak the language of the genre you've chosen. Jazz and classical speak standard notation. I see no sin, however, in whatever shortcuts you devise for yourself. The goal is the music, not dots or numbers on lined paper. What ever gets you there is good.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-20-2013, 03:42 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,450
Default

I've never understood how people find notation hard. I learned it at school with everyone else (playing recorder) before I ever thought of learning guitar. When I did start on guitar, the book I used was all notation, no tab, so that made it easy.

Of course, the trick is to begin with it (like the kids I teach do, from age 7 - they have no trouble with it). If you're already some years down the line, used to tabs, I can see it can feel scary to go back and feel like a beginner again.

Essentially you need to learn the neck. Then it's not too hard to look at a piece of notation, see (eg) there's a middle C, and you know you can play that on string 2 fret 1, string 3 fret 5, string 4 fret 10, etc. You should then be able to transfer whatever line it is to a scale pattern you know in whatever position you choose. Eg, if the line runs C D E G F, you find the D E G F around where you place the C. If you don't know the neck well enough to do that, then you need to work on that too.

Obviously this is not quick. I've been reading music for 50 years (playing guitar for 46) I still can't sight read a piece straight off, unless it's really simple. I've never had to. But I can do it quick enough.
So - unless you've been booked for some session work next week! - don't worry about it being a slow process. Just keep at it - and put the tabs away! Remember tab is a prison; it locks you into one position. Notation gives you freedom; you play it your way.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-20-2013, 05:51 AM
Seanr Seanr is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: South Australia
Posts: 294
Default

I like having both. Notation tells me note duration - and the note, but tab tells me where it is played on the neck. Use what works for you because if like most of us you learn a song then stop relying on any form of visual representation. Enjoy the process.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-20-2013, 07:00 AM
offkey offkey is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 856
Default

I began a few years ago with an alto recorder so I learned standard notation from the beginning. Then used it as well with beginning guitar, after a short while I found I could play easier and read tab quicker so began to do that. Now that I have progressed a little more I regret the tab shortcut. Tab is useful if you don't know the notes up the fingerboard, but it also allows you not to learn those notes. I now prefer to use books without tab so I am not cheating with it. There is just so much more information available with standard notation.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-20-2013, 08:09 AM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 10,189
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 815C View Post
Stevie Wonder

Ray Charles

Reading is good, helpful, valuable - you should do it.

But keep in mind that a whole lot of great music came from folks who couldn't read.
Wow, I'd expect a lot more than this flawed, tired argument from a guy who's a teacher.

When I have the ability to sing or write a song like Stevie, I'll gladly put the notes away...the op wants to play jazz. He can wait thirty years for his ear to catch up or spend a few months learning to read, getting a real book, and playing some tunes.

Why do guitar players feel the need to live in magic fairyland? This is basic stuff, and its a gift for life.
__________________
Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:

http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-20-2013, 09:50 AM
Doc Hollywood Doc Hollywood is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 16
Default Standard Notation more useful, IMHO

Reading standard notation is not that difficult to learn. Why limit yourself with just tabs?

Doc
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:54 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=