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  #16  
Old 11-19-2010, 08:57 AM
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I think you are totally right Haans. There is a lot of pretty strong pressure to keep your prices low until you are a "known builder".

Also, "cpabolting", leaves a lot of variable costs out of the equation. Many places where folks live, don't allow a builder to build at home, and sell instruments, or have a shop in his back yard. I almost got zapped with that when I went to get a business license. I got by on a loophole, that allows for craftspeople to work out of the heated space of the home, as long as it's less than 25% of the total heated space. My business had to be "Woodcraft for Guitars", not making guitars, and the only reason I can use my shop, is that it is attached to my house, and is heated, and because I was nice and asked if there wasn't some way, I could get around the restriction and live my "retirement dream" out. My point is, that a lot of builders have to lease commercial industrial space for building, or move. There is some serious overhead in that process. The other thing is that you totally leave out the other overhead issues - the wood you can't use, and have to take losses on, keeping a shop environmentally stable, equipment wear and tear and maintenance costs, etc. If you can make $10 per hour on a $3000 guitar, you are a magician!
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  #17  
Old 11-19-2010, 09:04 AM
Ehvamone Ehvamone is offline
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Great points here. I also have a hard time thinking that lower priced luthiers are cutting out the market for the more established luthiers. I think people tend to go with what they can afford or go without. For example, I could not afford a guitar for what the average established builder charges. So I would basically just end up buying a name brand off the shelf rather than financing a build I cannot afford.
The lower priced builder fills that niche for people who would not otherwise ever buy a custom instrument. In short, I think the newer, lower priced builders are cutting into the name brand market- taylor, martin etc- and not the established luthier market.
No-one who could have a Somogyi is going to not buy it in exchange for an unknown luhtier.
Secondly, there is alot more risk going with an unknown builder that has to be reflected on the price.
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  #18  
Old 11-19-2010, 01:37 PM
D.Kwasnycia D.Kwasnycia is offline
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Waddy and Rod both make some good points and ya, if you can do it for $10 an hour, your doing real good.
For example, the Mahogany/Cedar SJ price has been slashed to $3000, yet no takers and the OOO walnut tunnel 13 red wood guitar as well has been dropped much lower in price than I wanted. My starting price on my guitars over 2 years ago was up to $4500 to start and because of the way the economy has been I dropped that price to $4000. Does this mean that I am under cutting if I drop my price again?
The thing is this, You have to do what you have to do, to make a living and if I have to find a job outside of building and repairing guitars/stringed instruments then I will. You can only drop your price so much before it isn't worth building any more, That would be time to find another trade.

Link for the SJ
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...ight=kwasnycia

Link for the OOO
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...ight=kwasnycia
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  #19  
Old 11-19-2010, 02:48 PM
cpabolting cpabolting is offline
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The one thing I know.... is if there are at least 10 builders selling guitars for 3k, there is money to be made at 3k. That is for sure. Otherwise, they would not be in business. One can only bleed for so long.
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  #20  
Old 11-19-2010, 05:50 PM
KolayaGuitars KolayaGuitars is offline
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Hi, I'm Brad Daniels, in Fenton, Mi. My base price guitar is $2500, so i'm sure we could make something happen for you. I will be at Montreal this year again if you would like to check em out first. heres my website

http://www.kolayaco.com


I just became a full sponsor but i haven't had time to build an introduction thread, but it's coming soon!!
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  #21  
Old 11-19-2010, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D.Kwasnycia View Post
Waddy and Rod both make some good points and ya, if you can do it for $10 an hour, your doing real good.
For example, the Mahogany/Cedar SJ price has been slashed to $3000, yet no takers and the OOO walnut tunnel 13 red wood guitar as well has been dropped much lower in price than I wanted. My starting price on my guitars over 2 years ago was up to $4500 to start and because of the way the economy has been I dropped that price to $4000. Does this mean that I am under cutting if I drop my price again?
The thing is this, You have to do what you have to do, to make a living and if I have to find a job outside of building and repairing guitars/stringed instruments then I will. You can only drop your price so much before it isn't worth building any more, That would be time to find another trade.

Link for the SJ
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...ight=kwasnycia

Link for the OOO
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...ight=kwasnycia
That's a **** shame that you had to lower your prices. That Bastogne guitar you made a while back was amazing!
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  #22  
Old 11-20-2010, 04:46 AM
Haans Haans is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpabolting View Post
The one thing I know.... is if there are at least 10 builders selling guitars for 3k, there is money to be made at 3k. That is for sure. Otherwise, they would not be in business. One can only bleed for so long.
CPA, I would bet that 12 of those 10 are on their way up or hoping to be so soon, or are making a "depression era", plain jane, taxicab special models; cheap quick build instruments. It is amazing what folks will do to feed the kids. True, one can only bleed for so long, but many have bled to death, and there is always someone else that will step up and cut themselves to try building instruments. It is a long slow death...
I've had a couple of friends bring over two drednaughts from a guy that were around 1K each and they sounded pretty good, but were flat horrible looking and I wouldn't trust the construction...so, an instrument can be had for just about any price. Don't count on quality though...
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  #23  
Old 11-20-2010, 06:15 AM
archtopGeek archtopGeek is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haans View Post
I've had a couple of friends bring over two drednaughts from a guy that were around 1K each and they sounded pretty good, but were flat horrible looking and I wouldn't trust the construction...so, an instrument can be had for just about any price. Don't count on quality though...
With all due respect, as the referred instruments did sound pretty good, I assume the term "Quality" referes to the materials, aesthetics and workmanship. If we are talking about hand-built one man show instruments (custom or not), how much $$s a luthier must spend to assure that the instruments are of a "trustable" (trustworthy?) construction with quality materials? OR asked differently, what part of actual price goes in enhancing the "Quality"? Is it all about the price of the glue? Or is it implied that 1K guitar maker doesn't know how to shape the wood and assemble/join parts with glue?

Up until now I thought customs/hand-built guitars were pricey because of the sound quality/tone/voicing etc, along with them being "custom". "Clean" construction and "Reliable" construction are two different things IMHO.

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  #24  
Old 11-20-2010, 08:57 AM
Brent Nelson Brent Nelson is offline
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Default just one perspective....

I do a bit of consulting work. Some may consider my fees comparatively high. However, I can't imagine lobbying/imploring/leveraging/hoping "lesser" competitors someday realize that they are making it harder for me to get work in a competitive market by charging less than I do. Consumers make that judgement, and if ones services satisfy the person that's paying the bill, that's the only vote that matters. Subsequently, I'll have to be a LOT better or lower my fees. I like to think I'm just a lot better!!!

I also don't agree with the notion that high price is ALWAYS equivalent to higher quality. I think Todd makes a great argument in his Webber example. It may be for some products in some markets that the MORE one charges for their product, the better the sales (exclusivity)....quality aside. I think Gibson took this very tact. I've had similar discussions with prominent luthiers here, some of whom believe indeed that the more they charge for their instruments (exclusivity...which is indeed worth something), the better their sales and bottom line. I too believe that, in some instances for some products, this can be true.

Charge what you want (lots or little). Earn what you can and wish and need (lots or little). See if it floats in the market. Just my two cents.
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  #25  
Old 11-20-2010, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R. True View Post
My guess is that just to cut even , you guys in California need to be about 20-30% higher than the guy in Michigan, which for the guy in Michigan is pure gravy if the quality and brand recognition is the same.
Regional cost of living differences can be greater than that.
I moved back East from the midwest, am nominally making more than twice
the wages and have a lower net.

Here is a cost-of-living comparison calculator,
put in San Francisco area vs. Columbia MO, , equivalent salary of $75K in MO is nearly double in SF:
http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/...alculator.aspx

Last edited by FPicker; 11-20-2010 at 09:42 AM.
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  #26  
Old 11-20-2010, 11:08 AM
Rod True Rod True is offline
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There are other factors in all this too.

Cost of equipment and the perception of what is needed in order to build guitars (or instruments for a broader scope).

So, I have a table saw and I use it very regularly in my construction of guitars. I bought it used for $400, it's a 1950's delta unisaw. It's of very good quality and I suspect with regular maintenance that I won't need another one in my lifetime. If I were to buy a new replacement of the same saw at the same quality, I would have to spend about $1200.

Compressors, spray guns, buffers, thickness sanders, the list is pretty big. Then there are the jigs and specialty tools needed to make guitars...

Shop size. I built a 185 sft shop, it is a bit small, but honestly, I have it set up so that if I had the orders, I could build 24 guitars a year out of it. That area could and in most cases is a lot bigger. I hear some builders say they need at least 400-500 sft of shop space to get the job done, and at that they feel cramped.

What I would really love to see from some of the well established makers is the range in value they expect the up and comers to fall into. I know this is almost impossible to do though as there really is no way to offer an opinion of value based on pictures alone. One needs to play, hear and look at the guitar in person in order to establish value.

The other factor in all this is the number of sales. Heck, If I could sell a guitar at $60,000, I'd only need to make one But reality is that I'm sure I can't sell a guitar for this much....so what is realistic? I think honestly if I were to want to make a decent living (which is also highly subjective) I'd need to make 20 guitars a year selling them at $3500 for a base model guitar. But then I'd have to get into my cost to build right, which is something that might not want to be discussed in an open forum of purchasers of said wares. That's really one of the biggest factors in all of this.

Don't forget, marketing is another cost in all this. There are the trade shows, getting to them, brochures, magazine articles, websites, business cards. Some builders spend allot on marketing while others don't.

Production time is another factor. I know a maker of high end custom guitars (John McQuarrie of Northwood guitars) who's got his processes down to about 45 hours per guitar, which includes his polyester finish. Other's take double that or more.....

There are big variances from one builder to the next....all this has an effect on the overhead and overall P&L reported by the builder.
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  #27  
Old 11-20-2010, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by R. True View Post
There are other factors in all this too.
I know a maker of high end custom guitars (John McQuarrie of Northwood guitars) who's got his processes down to about 45 hours per guitar, which includes his polyester finish.
That's pretty amazing....
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  #28  
Old 11-20-2010, 12:48 PM
D.Kwasnycia D.Kwasnycia is offline
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Originally Posted by R. True
There are other factors in all this too.
I know a maker of high end custom guitars (John McQuarrie of Northwood guitars) who's got his processes down to about 45 hours per guitar, which includes his polyester finish.

That is impossible without automation. Even then I can see the body in that time but not the neck. I would sure like to see how he does this, could come in handy for teaching the subject for sure.
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  #29  
Old 11-20-2010, 12:48 PM
Rod True Rod True is offline
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That's pretty amazing....
Now, I don't know how much of that is full process time. I think he buys his necks rough milled but not fully tapered or shaped, might buy his headstock overlay (veneer) with his inlay done already... there may be other time saving factors too, it's all about balancing out the cost to produce versus the cost to purchase pre-made items, even in rough form.

There are ways to cut construction time by setting up to do a process and make the part for multiple guitars, like head blocks, tail blocks, slotting fretboards, rough cutting brace stock. Set up time on a one off basis can really add up quickly. Efficiency is key
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  #30  
Old 11-20-2010, 12:59 PM
Rod True Rod True is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D.Kwasnycia View Post
Originally Posted by R. True
There are other factors in all this too.
I know a maker of high end custom guitars (John McQuarrie of Northwood guitars) who's got his processes down to about 45 hours per guitar, which includes his polyester finish.

That is impossible without automation. Even then I can see the body in that time but not the neck. I would sure like to see how he does this, could come in handy for teaching the subject for sure.
Remember, this is hands on time, not waiting for glue to dry either He had no automation. It's not impossible though.

Break it all down sometime, step by step. I know there are times in my shop where I sort of stand there and think "what should I do next...?" and that can add up quickly too.

I use to be an estimator for a machine shop and it's very important to the bottom line to gather good details of the constructon process and the time it takes to do each step. And this of course all effects the profit margin.

I better stop now, before I get some folks mad at me....

Last edited by Rod True; 11-20-2010 at 01:17 PM.
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