K&K - JJB output voltage

hat · #1 02-13-2017, 05:44 AM

Since there seems to be some argument as to whether the JJB pickups are as 'hot' as K&K mini's- has anyone every actually measured the output voltage to see?

jonfields45 · #2 02-13-2017, 07:22 AM

No, but even if it was only half, that would be -6dB, certainly easily noticed and easily fixed by turning a volume knob somewhere. I've installed quite of few of both and did not find the difference noticeable.

MrErikJ · #3 02-13-2017, 12:13 PM

I installed a JJB in a guitar and liked the way it sounded, though I did sell the guitar. The technician told me he thought it was quieter than the K&K and less clear. However, JJB & K&K use the same input impedance, so I would highly recommend picking up one of the K&K belt-clip preamps. The K&K Minis I've heard without the preamp are frequently too muddy sounding and greatly benefit from that boost & EQ. JJB makes a pedal version, but it does nothing but boost the signal. You'll be happy with either pickup, but the K&K preamps are better.

chitz · #4 02-13-2017, 12:36 PM

According to Jesse @ JJB, the prestige 330 is slightly less hot than the K&K Mini.

Most ears (including mine) can't tell the diff.

ljguitar · #5 02-14-2017, 11:23 AM

Hi hat…
I had a JJB 330 installed in an OM, and had both it, and my 4 personal acoustic guitars (all with K&K Pure mini) side-by-side in my home and at church for a week. My gigging partner and I tested them pretty thoroughly (several experiments through multiple systems and amps).

The JJB was not as hot, sounded muddy compared to the K&K Pure mini in my guitars, and no matter whether we played it without a preamp or with a preamp. It was played through UltraSound Amps (AG-50 & AG-30), 2 prosumer analog mixers (one with Community 12 inch two way speaker cabinets the other with average 2 way plus sub), through a digital mixer and QSC K-10 cabinets.

I had flat pickers play it (and strum it) and fingerstyle players too. We challenged ourselves to see how good we could make it sound. My goal was to come up with a list of minimum gear that will make a player sound stellar through a PA/Amp.

The JJB was not only muddy, but sounded strident on the high end when pushed in volume. The JJB produced the same characteristics through all of the systems (so did the K&Ks). Even though it was the model which more closely resembles the original K&K Pure Western, the Western was more bassy, and had better treble (great model for 12 strings still made by K&K).

When plugged into identical preamps, the settings varied quite a bit from the K&K Pure mini, and we could get the JJB to produce an OK sound, but never stellar. I wouldn't ever put one in a guitar I own to save $40.

hat · #6 02-14-2017, 11:40 AM

While I do appreciate all the input, I still would like to see some hard data on this. I am not doing this in support of one brand over the other, but more so because of so much back and forth on the forum ( and others) about using one vs the other. To me it seems simple, if someone has the available technology to just feed the output to a 'scope or digital voltmeter and read what the output is. At least it seems simple enough. Besides, if we know that brand B is XX lower than brand A, then it makes it easier to decide if your setup will allow you to use one or the other...

jonfields45 · #7 02-14-2017, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hat

While I do appreciate all the input, I still would like to see some hard data on this. I am not doing this in support of one brand over the other, but more so because of so much back and forth on the forum ( and others) about using one vs the other. To me it seems simple, if someone has the available technology to just feed the output to a 'scope or digital voltmeter and read what the output is. At least it seems simple enough. Besides, if we know that brand B is XX lower than brand A, then it makes it easier to decide if your setup will allow you to use one or the other...

That sounds like an easy experiment, but in reality very tough since you would need two installs done with the exact same materials and techniques, side-by-side, on the same model guitar, with the same strings, and the same excitation. And there is no reason to even prefer a hotter output with modern equipment that bristles with multiple active volume controls...

Wooly · #8 02-14-2017, 12:11 PM

I have a JJB in my Alvarez parlor. I don't know if it's the guitar but the JJB is definitely louder than the K&K's that are in my other two guitars. I have to turn it down somewhat. I don't notice any difference in sound quality. Maybe someone else would.

frank4001 · #9 02-14-2017, 12:40 PM

I have three JJB's installed professionally .
All sound very clear and provide a strong signal.
All can be used without a pre-amp if need be.

Martin J-40 install is a bit louder.
Martin D-18GE and Gibson J-45 are about even.

Maybe variance is due to particular instruments or install.
Not sure but all work great especially with a pre-amp.
I use an Ashdown pedal type preamp.

ljguitar · #10 02-14-2017, 07:08 PM

Hi Tom-H

I often scratch my head a little when this topic comes up. If raw output voltage is the only concern, then find someone with one who can plug them into a test device and you'll have your measurement.

But you have not even questioned preamp/no-pre, amp (make or power), cables, the PA system we may play through. Nor did you question how it was installed (tape or glue, by one's self or by a pro installer).

Do you see these as relevant? Or are you just curious about a raw power reading?

I can report that when my gigging partner plays my guitars, they are hotter through everything than when I play them (if I don't boost the volume).

And since I'm a fingerstyle player and he's a flatpicker, I also have to adjust the trebles to account for the pick.

donh · #11 02-14-2017, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hat

While I do appreciate all the input, I still would like to see some hard data on this. I am not doing this in support of one brand over the other, but more so because of so much back and forth on the forum ( and others) about using one vs the other. To me it seems simple, if someone has the available technology to just feed the output to a 'scope or digital voltmeter and read what the output is. At least it seems simple enough. Besides, if we know that brand B is XX lower than brand A, then it makes it easier to decide if your setup will allow you to use one or the other...

Since you dismiss all the nice data that has been offered, here is your test jig:

Buy or borrow a Tone_Rite (tm), buy some Super-Glue (tm), buy or borrow a dual-trace oscilloscope. Glue the JJB and the the K&K pickups to the Tone-Rite (tm). Be sure to glue them right next to each other, and both as near as possible to the exciter part of the Tone-Rite (tm). read the output of the pickups on the dual-race 'scope, taking acre to calibrate the 'scope inputs before measurements are taken.

Poof! you have your voltage readings. Feel free to load the pickups (or not) however you desire, taking care to calibrate the loads. You will have a nice range of voltage readings that have nothing whatsoever to do with guitar playing.

Enjoy your nice voltage chart!

martingitdave · #12 02-14-2017, 08:46 PM

There are too many variables to make a reasonable test. If the manufacturer says they are slightly weaker than K&K, just take his word for it. The K&K products have been pretty flawless for me. And, I've installed a LOT of them. I've always wondered why, if you're paying someone good money to install your pickup, and you've purchased a nice sound system to play it through, why you'd try and save $50 on the most important component in the chain. If I were short cash, and I was doing my own install, I'd consider it. I purchased one JBB for a Yamaha that I didn't keep. It sounded good. But, the K&K is just more consistent and easier to make it sound good.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

jonfields45 · #13 02-14-2017, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by donh

Since you dismiss all the nice data that has been offered, here is your test jig:

Buy or borrow a Tone_Rite (tm), buy some Super-Glue (tm), buy or borrow a dual-trace oscilloscope. Glue the JJB and the the K&K pickups to the Tone-Rite (tm). Be sure to glue them right next to each other, and both as near as possible to the exciter part of the Tone-Rite (tm). read the output of the pickups on the dual-race 'scope, taking acre to calibrate the 'scope inputs before measurements are taken.

Poof! you have your voltage readings. Feel free to load the pickups (or not) however you desire, taking care to calibrate the loads. You will have a nice range of voltage readings that have nothing whatsoever to do with guitar playing.

Enjoy your nice voltage chart!

Only to the extent a tone-rite models a real guitar bridge plate... I could test guitars by banging them with a hammer too :~).

Mandobart · #14 02-14-2017, 10:41 PM

I don't have an o'scope or AC millivoltmeter, or the desire to spend the $200 or more to get one since I've never needed one since I left the USN. Consumer grade multimeters can't reliably read the ~50 mV signal from a piezo. This is partly because the signals from stray noise and induced signals from nearby AC lines get picked up by the meter.
I couldn't get a steady reading using any of my meters connected to a 1/4" cable plugged in to either instrument, even without playing or vibrating it in any way. This was true of the K&K and JJB. Donh above has the right idea on how to conduct a reasonable test comparing the output of the two, but it takes test equipment that I don't intend to purchase.

I can't argue with anyone else's experience. I have installed one K&K internal twin pickup and 15 internally mounted JJB pickups (2 and 3 head, 15 mm and 20 mm) in my own instruments. I've played all of these thru a variety of preamps, PA's and acoustic amps at mostly small clubs, parties and a few slightly larger (~200 - 500 people) outdoor festivals and farmer's markets. The installation cost alone for all of these would have set me back enough to buy a decent guitar. The $75 difference in price (I paid just under $20 for each of my JJB's) times 15 instruments also adds up to more than chump change. It could be I lack the sophisticated ear required to detect a sonic difference between the two brands (I've spent most of my life working in power plants). I have found that the mounting method and location has a large influence on the amplified sound for both brands.