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  #16  
Old 01-17-2017, 08:50 AM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is online now
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Originally Posted by patentcad View Post
It sounds great until you start playing single note lead lines and then it sounds pretty awful. At least to me. Go figure. I guess eventually I may buy another Taylor and if I don't like it change the pickup. Wondering if there's a guy out there who will go in and modify their pickup to address this issue.

If anyone out there even thinks there IS an issue.

Thanks for the responses so far.
Remember, what you had is the Expression System 1.3 and not the Expression System 2. If you're considering a new Taylor, it'll have the new ES2, which, IMHO, is much better and sounds more natural than the older ES1 systems.

If you buy a new acoustic-only Taylor, and you play in up to moderately loud venues, you could consider putting a Trance Audio Amulet Dual Mono system in it. These systems come in battery power or phantom power models.
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  #17  
Old 01-17-2017, 08:55 AM
Woodstock School Of Music Woodstock School Of Music is offline
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Originally Posted by patentcad View Post
I even like how the vaunted Expression system sounds - but not when I play single note lead guitar. Pickup sounds great on strumming, finger style - but when I play single note lead with a flat pick I think they sound awful - and I don't have this issue with any of the several third party setups from companies like Baggs and Fishman on my other guitars.
You nailed exactly why I didn't like the expression system on a 2013 714ce I briefly owned. I also play a lot of single note lead guitar and anytime I went higher than the fourth fret on the first three strings the sound turned magneticy for lack of a better word. I even called Taylor to ask them about it and I was basically told there's nothing wrong with the system. I could have sent it to them to see if they could adjust something but I ended up returning the guitar
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  #18  
Old 01-17-2017, 09:06 AM
Cuki79 Cuki79 is offline
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I also found that the Taylor ES1 must be played as an electric guitar when played lead.

You have to play while listening to the amplified sound and move your picking hand toward the bridge to get more bite.

Yes the sound will not be true to your acoustic but this system has a great dynamic and is able to provide fine sounding lead lines once you've accepted it.

Django Reinhardt had only three fingers... He made music with it.

Maybe one day, a kid on youtube will use a "vintage" Taylor ES1 and make crazy solos with it... Then everyone will tell: "Wow, how can he make an acoustic sound like that???)

Note that I was never wise enough to follow that road (train my finger to overcome the technology limitation).

Cuki

PS: There is however a real solution for the ES1 that implies less modification. Note that I don't take any responsability for the following:
1) Unplug the magnetic pickup under the fretboard. (I did it once, it is not that difficult). Then you will use only the soundboard transducer that does not suffer from the comb filtering thickness. Basically you end with a magnetic soundboard pickup (ex: Schertler makes one I think)
2) Buy a Tonedexter pedal and image your guitar from the Taylor ES1 soundboard transducer.
I will probably try to implement that with my own DIY IR process.

NB: In principle Taylor ES1?3 could become the ultimate pickup system, by making a new preamp board and using the stereo out jack to ouput two unbalanced signal: 1 from the magnetic pickup (super feedback resistant) and one for the soundboard transducer with Impulse response (IR) correction (ex: Tonedexter, D-Tar Mama bear, Fishman Aura....)
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Last edited by Cuki79; 01-17-2017 at 09:54 AM.
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  #19  
Old 01-17-2017, 09:11 AM
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Why not order one without electronics?
The OP's concern is but one reason that I prefer my Taylors without electronics...
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  #20  
Old 01-17-2017, 10:03 AM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Originally Posted by Cuki79 View Post
I also found that the Taylor ES1 must be played as an electric guitar when played lead.

You have to play while listening to the amplified sound and move your picking hand toward the bridge to get more bite.

Yes the sound will not be true to your acoustic but this system has a great dynamic and is able to provide fine sounding lead lines once you've accepted it.

Django Reinhardt had only three fingers... He made music with it.

Maybe one day, a kid on youtube will use a "vintage" Taylor ES1 and make crazy solos with it... Then everyone will tell: "Wow, how can he make an acoustic sound like that???)

Note that I was never wise enough to follow that road (train my finger to overcome the technology limitation).

Cuki

PS: There is however a real solution for the ES1 that implies less modification. Note that I don't take any responsability for the following:
1) Unplug the magnetic pickup under the fretboard. (I did it once, it is not that difficult). Then you will use only the soundboard transducer that does not suffer from the comb filtering thickness. Basically you end with a magnetic soundboard pickup (ex: Schertler makes one I think)
2) Buy a Tonedexter pedal and image your guitar from the Taylor ES1 soundboard transducer.
I will probably try to implement that with my own DIY IR process.

NB: In principle Taylor ES1?3 could become the ultimate pickup system, by making a new preamp board and using the stereo out jack to ouput two unbalanced signal: 1 from the magnetic pickup (super feedback resistant) and one for the soundboard transducer with Impulse response (IR) correction (ex: Tonedexter, D-Tar Mama bear, Fishman Aura....)
I don't know, the ES1 was fairly bad IMO. I think it represented a time where Taylor were trying to bring everything in house and they really had to start somewhere. They marketed it as a fantastic pickup but in reality it was worse than most magnetic systems. Having to compromise between true acoustic tone and pickup tone is one thing but the ES1 actually sounded like an electric guitar, which is not a good thing.

It's so easy now to just order the tru-plug system, rip out the ES1 and install whatever you want. Far less work than unhooking the magnetic pickup and trying to make the SBT's work. I think there's a reason why you almost never see artists using this system. I remember a few people playing it when it first came out but they quickly abandoned it.
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  #21  
Old 01-17-2017, 10:08 AM
Paultergeist Paultergeist is offline
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Originally Posted by RP View Post
The OP's concern is but one reason that I prefer my Taylors without electronics...
I relate to the OP's issue, and not all manufacturers even offer their full instrument line without electronics. As an example, I have become quite fond of having a "cut-away" type body style (easier access to the higher frets), but it is often impossible to get the cut-away guitar without the electronics already installed by the manufacturer. Because I have a finicky ear with respect to pick-up systems, I have found myself installing a higher-end pick-up after the fact, often leaving a *dead* barn-door electronic panel in place....or otherwise trying to cover the hole. I really hate that. I would pay more just to have had the manufacturer not install the electronics, and never have cut the hole in the side of the guitar in the first place.

Idea for a side business: Offer replacement wood panels to cover the holes created when barn-door panels are removed. *sigh*
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  #22  
Old 01-17-2017, 11:59 AM
midwinter midwinter is offline
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Like this one?

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Originally Posted by Paultergeist View Post
Idea for a side business: Offer replacement wood panels to cover the holes created when barn-door panels are removed. *sigh*
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  #23  
Old 01-17-2017, 12:56 PM
Cuki79 Cuki79 is offline
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Originally Posted by Cuki79 View Post
I totally agree with you about the Taylor ES1.3

You have two options:
* Get a new pickup (like the Trance Audio Amulet... )
* Retrofit the knobs:
http://shawwoodshop.com/products/exp...oustic-guitars



It's exactly what I have suggested in post n°7!!!

1) buy another pickup
2) fill the hole with a wood piece made for that

Of course I did not suggest to unplug the Magnetic pickup first This would be the most risky DIY attempt! But also the funiest

Cuki
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  #24  
Old 01-20-2017, 09:08 AM
JGinNJ JGinNJ is offline
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I didn't see any mention of what kind of amp is being used, and settings on it. That's the other half of the equation. Dial back the treble, use heavier strings.
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  #25  
Old 01-20-2017, 10:24 AM
Stratcat77 Stratcat77 is offline
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Originally Posted by Petty1818 View Post
Single notes sounded like I was playing a hollow bodied electric.
One man's trash is another man's treasure?

I'll admit right up front that I'm one of those guys who played almost exclusively electric guitar for the first 35 years of my playing. Mostly rock. About 5 years ago, I switched to acoustic and haven't looked back - I love it. I've embraced this whole new world of music that I can now get to perform that for so many years I couldn't. When you're playing the rock/dance club scene, no one wants to hear James Taylor.. My primary gig for the last 4 years has been with a keyboardist/vocalist and our song list includes medium tempo things which certainly aren't all "acoustic" songs. We do quite a bit of classic rock - mostly more laid back things that, again, I could never get away with playing the clubs. This includes things like Little River Band, Ambrosia, Atlanta Rhythm Section, Firefall, ELO, Steely Dan, etc. I have to believe there are a million of us old rock guys now playing Taylors and enjoying the acoustic scene.

Long winded explanation of why I actually love the fact that my 314ce & 814ce with the ES1 can sound like a hollow bodied electric! Not exactly. I think it still sounds more acoustic than electric, but it's a nice lead sound. And for the strumming and finger-picking, I think it sounds great. If my setlist was only pure acoustic folk music, I might look elsewhere, but for my "acoustic" gig song list, it includes a lot of songs that were originally played on electric guitar. It's fun for me to try to figure out a way to make the song work on acoustic, but unlike some others, I suppose I may not be looking for a perfect pure acoustic sound.

Here's a clip of what I do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CftY4YY7f3Q

Like I said, most of what I do is play songs originally recorded on electric guitar, so I'm not a purist in the sound I'm seeking.
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Last edited by Stratcat77; 01-20-2017 at 10:31 AM.
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  #26  
Old 01-20-2017, 10:35 AM
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Why not order one without electronics?
Exactly! I ordered my '02 814c new without electronics. Guitar pickup systems are ever-evolving, so imo, it doesn't make sense to buy any quality guitar with electronics in it, let-alone have unnecessary holes of any kind. I now have a Baggs Anthem SL in it.
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  #27  
Old 01-20-2017, 02:45 PM
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Default I Gave Up the Expression System, Still LOVE Taylor!

AMEN Brother! I've thought this for over 10 years, and did something about it a long time back.

I love Fishman electronics as much as I love my Taylor guitar.

I learned this when I bought my first Taylor with the old ES - hated it, truly could NOT use it live. Sold it.

Custom ordered my now 2008 Taylor, with some cosmetic things I preferred anyway, and NO electronics, sort of. With some persuasive sweet-talking from my long-time GC guy, he talked them into making the guitar WITH the knobs (which I LIKE) AND the end-pin battery compartment and plug (which I LIKE).

Then I got a Fishman Infinity Matrix and got it specially installed and connected to the knobs and the end pin. Sounds fantastic, WITH the very cool mounting cosmetic aspects of the Expression. Done and Done. I'm delighted.

Now, this is NOT readily available, and I was lucky. And appreciative.

But even if you took a No-ES Taylor, and had just a standard Infinity Matrix professionally installed, that would be very usable, and much better sounding than the ES. OR any other pickup system that you personally prefer. I would look into the other specific products suggested here.

Very best luck to ya - don't give up on your fine Taylor! MIKE O'
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  #28  
Old 01-21-2017, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Rick Shepherd View Post
Why not order one without electronics?
Yes. It is rare to find the guitar you want with a decent pickup. I will be ripping out a baggs element out of my new gibson dove very soon. And I took an iBeam out of a new custom D18. I typically buy with no electronics ... but sometimes the one you want has less than great electronics.

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  #29  
Old 01-22-2017, 01:43 PM
Rick Shepherd Rick Shepherd is offline
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Yeah, you can order one without but that takes away any chances of finding a good used price.
Well, If you really hold Taylor guitars in such high regard, why not buy new? The warranty it a good thing and you can install your own electronics. I don't understand your thinking, unless you are unable to afford a new one.
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  #30  
Old 01-22-2017, 02:03 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Originally Posted by Rick Shepherd View Post
Well, If you really hold Taylor guitars in such high regard, why not buy new? The warranty it a good thing and you can install your own electronics. I don't understand your thinking, unless you are unable to afford a new one.
Not worth the new price IMO. I think they are priced well but here in Canada, Taylor guitars are going for close to $4000 (talking about the (800 series). For that price, I would rather go boutique. I tend to always buy used now. There's zero reason to by new. I can find a mint condition, used 814 for $1500 or more less than the new price.

Having said that, even if I did buy new, I would still have to custom order without electronics and that's something I won't do. Too many variables to consider.
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