Taylor ES2 - new system - ALERT...

[jonfields45]

Taylor could have taken a hint from the K&K mini and based a new system on that approach; good overall sound and bullet proof simplicity. I feel instead they've hung a plastic thing underneath the busiest part of a guitar, drilled three extra holes in something that already has too many holes, and judging from another thread, made a common end user saddle replacement a chance to screw it up (seems someone replaced a saddle without loosening the screws and tore the contact/shield off of one of the piezo elements). If it really sounds incrementally better than a well equalized K&K, I doubt you would know it from reading the reviews on this forum. The original ES system was hardly a mechanical minimal design either and I suspect one of the ES2 motivations was to cut down on the manufacturing cost as it is quite a bit simpler.

I love what they've done with the new 800 series cherry picking the best ideas of acoustic guitar design, new and old. And their marketing is OUTSTANDING! I'm no Taylor hater having just bought my grad student son a GA3 12 string (NOS on sale at Gryphon) and a T5z Classic for myself last week (a magnetic system does make sense for something that doubles a an electric guitar). But I think they may have been sipping a bit of their own bath water on the ES2 (which I don't doubt is a competitive system for sound, but I think it is innovation for marketing sake which may not pay back for its physical minuses).

Jon

[StevenL]

Some of the Taylors are great guitars. But not about to buy a horrible Taylor pickup. The only clips I've heard so far of the new one....in my opinion sound even worse than the older ones. I wish I could love them. But I don't. Would still love to have a 514...pickup free.

[fjs1962]

Based on my experience I'm going to defend the new ES2. I bought a new 814ce back in 2009. I fought with the old system for nearly 5 years and was never satisfied with the sound I got out of it. I tried turning sensors on and off, running it balanced and unbalanced and EQing different ways. I was about to spend $450 on a K4 preamp to try when I heard Taylor had a new improved version of the ES coming.

My complaints with the old system were mainly based on the boxy, phasey sound I got when playing up the neck. Depending on which sensors I turned on/off different notes would have this funky sound. I guess it was OK for strumming in the first position, but any lead lines would sound odd and unnatural. Plus while I rarely ever played past the 14th fret I found that once I hit the body joint the volume of the notes on the highest frets dropped off. I'm guessing once you passed where the mag pickup was under the neck it didn't pick up as well?

I have a 19 year old HD28 with a Fishman Matrix Infinity pickup that, while it's not perfect, I thought sounded better than the 2 sensor ES1 in my 814. So when I got the chance I sold the 814 and bought a 2014 816ce FE. For me the new ES2 fixes everything I didn't like about the old system. It sounds more balanced, more natural, more like the guitar. In fact when I recently put it through the big house system where I play the FOH engineer wanted to know if the new system included a mike, because it had what he described as a "miked up" sound.

Now granted I never got to try the single sensor ES1, which may have been an improvement over the 2 sensor ES1 I had. And all of this is my opinion, and I certainly don't expect everyone to hear things the way I do. But for me the new ES2 has been a major improvement to something that had always frustrated me.

[guitaniac]

One wonders if the differing perspectives here simply reflect differences in personal taste, or if there's actually a significant amount of inconsistency among the ES2-equipped guitars.

[dcopper]

I had good luck with the latest version of the ES1 system - have it in my 2012 quileted Sapele custom GA FLTD. The initial ES system in my experience was unusable.

When I tried the new ES2, is it my ears or do those piezo crystals still sound "stressed" just like when they are under pressure like an undersaddle piezo pickup? By stressed I mean that they sound somewhat distorted.

I have been using soundhole pickups more recently and just tried the JJB-electronic version of the K&K pwm. On the K&K pwm and the JJB pickups, I don't hear that "stress" like I did with the ES2.

That being said, I played the Fall Limited 514 which was the test guitar for the ES2 and it sounded pretty good. The amp was not the best to be fair - it was a Trace elliott which to me sounds harsh. I still noticed what I thought was a bit of distortion common with piezos under pressure.

So, with all the new and older versions of the ES, the last guitar i bought was a 914 tobacco burst and I bought it without a pickup - problem solved. I threw a Sunrise mag on it and it sounds very sweet and natural.

davidc

[Joe F]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

One wonders if the differing perspectives here simply reflect differences in personal taste, or if there's actually a significant amount of inconsistency among the ES2-equipped guitars.

You’ve got that right! Some years back a church was having renovations done on their sanctuary so they were holding their Sunday service in our sanctuary after our service completed. Their sound guy came during our service to get the lay of our soundboard. He had nothing but complaints about the sound of my Gen 2 ES equipped 814ce. “Too magnetic sounding. Too midrange heavy etc..” I hung around to help them with their service. Their music leader shows up with his UST equipped acoustic (can’t remember the brand now). It was the typical UST sound. Somewhat brittle, rubber bandish sounding and when he dug in, quack city. Their sound guy looks over at me and says “Ahhh…now that’s what a plugged in acoustic is supposed to sound like!” Funny stuff!

[fjs1962]

Originally Posted by Joe F

Their sound guy looks over at me and says “Ahhh…now that’s what a plugged in acoustic is supposed to sound like!” Funny stuff!

I've got a friend who's the same way, he's just used to the sound of a UST in an acoustic so that's what he always likes better.

Like I said in my earlier post, I have a Matrix Infinity in my HD28, and it's not bad (a lot better than the Thinline Gold I used to have in it!) but it still has the piezo "quack" when you hit it hard. The ES2 in my 816ce is warmer and more natural sounding compared to the Infinity in my Martin, and doesn't have the "quack".

I wonder if the ES2's that people heard the piezo sound in were adjusted correctly? The instructions say you're supposed to adjust the ES2 pickup to press lightly against the back of the saddle. According to the sales pitch the quack of the USTs comes from so much pressure on the piezo crystals, so by that logic it would make sense that if the ES2 pickup is adjusted to tight against the saddle it would quack too?

[Vancebo]

Well now. Went back to that very same store to see a guitar clinic. THe clinician chose to use that very same guitar I tried out a week earlier. Sounded great though their PA. Hmmm. Maybe it's the player. :-)

[jonfields45]

I have probably an anti golden ears approach to pickups. I've found I can get satisfactory tone (hmmm, an interesting term to choose) out of the majority of pickup systems on the market (not all), so I put a high value on robustness and simplicity. This is one aspect for which all the ES versions are not optimized. I suspect I spent too much of my life as an EE... Jon

[joeprs]

I think one needs to spend some time with this, maybe more time than one already spent.

I tried a 2014 816ce at one of my local GC's and loved the guitar acoustically and didn't care for it when plugged in. So I thought I might prefer the old expression system.

This week, I stopped by the other local GC when I was in that part if town, tried a 2014 814ce, loved it acoustically, and when the salesman plugged it in, I thought it sounded good, which made me reconsider the new expression system.

More importantly, if I decide to purchase one of these guitars, I need to spend time in my studio environment with my acoustic/electric amp to really decide if I like or dislike the new electronics.

I do know it may not be for everybody and that's why the old electronics are available for those that may prefer them. Also, the changes they made in the bracing and with the HD strings with hybrid gauges have improved the sound of the 800 series dramatically. I love how this guitar sounds unplugged! I cannot imagine how it would sound in 2 years after it opens up!

I am not in the market for a new guitar, but every time I play one of these I torture myself because I really do want one. I just cannot justify it at this point in time. If I wanted to sell one of my acoustics to buy this, then I could justify it. But, I love what I have and don't want to sell anything. It would compliment what I have, cocobolo and Koa, so rosewood would fit in, but....

This is my opinion and experience with this guitar, so far....YMMV

[dgaemc2]

I own several Taylor guitars with the ES1, 3rd generation PU, and two Taylor guitars with the new ES2 PU.

In fact, the two guitars that I own with the new ES2 PU are the same two as SpruceTop owns.....2013 516e FLTD and 2014 816ce.

Personally, I wish that all of my Taylors had the new ES2 PU. Not that the ES1, 3rd generation is bad.....just that I prefer the ES2.

The ES2 in both of my guitars are very consistent and provide an amplified sound much more natural to the sound of the guitars.

Yes, I do turn the bass down on my guitar and/or amp, but it is very easy for me to dial in a great amplified sound using the ES2.

For those that love the ES1, 3rd generation amplified sound....they very well may not like the ES2 as well or at all, but for those that dislike or even hate the ES1....they may very well love the ES2.

One final thought.....in my mind no acoustic PU is perfect. I certainly can understand those that prefer to buy a guitar without a factory installed PU and add one of their choosing. Taylor offers all of their guitars without either ES.

Just my opinion.

[dcn100]

Originally Posted by dgaemc2

- One final thought.....in my mind no acoustic PU is perfect -

True - this entire industry of acoustic pickups and amps has such a difficult goal, to somehow capture the magic of the wood and steel. That said, I recently acquired a Fishman Loudbox Performer, and it does an amazing job, both with my ES equipped Taylor, and my Lyric equipped Yamamato. As far as I am concerned, man has basically landed on the moon at this point.

Originally Posted by jonfields45

I have probably an anti golden ears approach to pickups. I've found I can get satisfactory [tone] out of the majority of pickup systems on the market (not all), so I put a high value on robustness and simplicity.

My thoughts exactly. My ES1 has always sounded fine to me, as does my K&K. I don't get along with USTs, but I can make them work in a pinch. Honestly, it's not worth devoting the necessary time and energy to dialing in the perfect plugged-in tone, when I'm ultimately at the mercy of a sound system I have no control over, anyway.

[joeguam]

I think it was only mentioned once...but:
With all the EQ adjustments, did anyone attempt to adjust the positioning of the transducers FIRST???

It is my understanding that if the transducers are pressed up against the saddle with too much force, you will NOT get a natural sound. So if you start with an unnatural sound, chances are, there's no EQ that can help you.

[professorfinger]

I've recently played a few Taylors in guitar stores. To me, they all sounded good amplified. My new 812CE also sounds good amplified.

Having said this, I see no reason to a/b the current version versus the old.

JMHO,

TW