Extension speakers

[GRIMland]

I've got a question concerning Carvin amps and the extension speaker 1/4" out. I've got the Carvin AG300 acoustic amp and want to use it as a front of house type placement on a pole, and was thinking I could use the extension speaker 8ohm out as a small personal monitor pointing at me for mostly vocal monitoring.

The extension speakers that Carvin sells (AGE200/300 and the 112AG) would be overkill as a monitor, plus I believe the monitor volume is controlled by the master out, so they would be at the same volume which wouldn't work either since I use condenser mics and would need to keep monitor volume low.

My question is: could I plug the extension out to a small guitar amp or something similar that has a volume control? I've got an old Peavey Rage 15w electric amp from the late 90's but it's only 4 ohm so I'm afraid to try it as Carvin recommends 8ohm or higher for extensions.
Is there something else that might work that I'm not considering?

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by GRIMland

I've got a question concerning Carvin amps and the extension speaker 1/4" out. I've got the Carvin AG300 acoustic amp and want to use it as a front of house type placement on a pole, and was thinking I could use the extension speaker 8ohm out as a small personal monitor pointing at me for mostly vocal monitoring.

The extension speakers that Carvin sells (AGE200/300 and the 112AG) would be overkill as a monitor, plus I believe the monitor volume is controlled by the master out, so they would be at the same volume which wouldn't work either since I use condenser mics and would need to keep monitor volume low.

My question is: could I plug the extension out to a small guitar amp or something similar that has a volume control? I've got an old Peavey Rage 15w electric amp from the late 90's but it's only 4 ohm so I'm afraid to try it as Carvin recommends 8ohm or higher for extensions.
Is there something else that might work that I'm not considering?

I'm not sure about what you're asking here. You can't plug the speaker out from the Carvin into the input of a combo amp. Are you thinking of plugging the output into just the speaker cabinet of that little amp, bypassing the preamp section? And if so, does it have some sort of passive attenuator on it? As far as the ohms are concerned, check to see that the amp in the Carvin can accommodate a 4 ohm speaker. It should say somewhere in the manual. It would be the same as powering two 8 ohm speakers daisy-chained from the extension speaker output.

If you can't go directly to the speaker on the Peavey amp, and the Peavey is all you have to work with, you might want to try going into the amp input from a line out of the Carvin--if it has one. That's not going to sound all that great, I image in, but it should work. Or get a small powered monitor and go into it from the DI out of the Carvin. Or you could put an attenuator in between the ext. speaker output and a regular 8 ohm cabinet.

Louis

[GRIMland]

Thanks Louis that answers what I was getting at. I've never had an amp with an extension out before and I didn't know what would happen if I went out of that into input of another guitar amp. Out of curiosity, what would happen exactly?

Here's the excerpt from the manual regard the Ext. out:
"The AG200 and AG300 have one 1/4” extension speaker output connector,
which is connected in parallel with the internal 8 ohm speakers. You may
connect another speaker with an impedance of 8 ohms or higher. If you
go below the minimum speaker load, the amp may shut off. To reset the
amp, turn off the POWER switch and connect the recommended load."

The Peavey doesn't have a separate jack for speaker only, but I like your idea of using the line out of the Carvin into the Peavey. The output jacks on the Carvin are either XLR or phones/tuner. Like you said, it might not sound good but I think it would work for my purposes.

FYI here's a pic of the Carvin controls:

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by GRIMland

Thanks Louis that answers what I was getting at. I've never had an amp with an extension out before and I didn't know what would happen if I went out of that into input of another guitar amp. Out of curiosity, what would happen exactly?

Here's the excerpt from the manual regard the Ext. out:
"The AG200 and AG300 have one 1/4” extension speaker output connector,
which is connected in parallel with the internal 8 ohm speakers. You may
connect another speaker with an impedance of 8 ohms or higher. If you
go below the minimum speaker load, the amp may shut off. To reset the
amp, turn off the POWER switch and connect the recommended load."

The Peavey doesn't have a separate jack for speaker only, but I like your idea of using the line out of the Carvin into the Peavey. The output jacks on the Carvin are either XLR or phones/tuner. Like you said, it might not sound good but I think it would work for my purposes.

FYI here's a pic of the Carvin controls:

If you put an amplified signal like the one coming out of your ext. speaker output into an input that expects an instrument level signal you are going to seriously overdrive the input. Remember that the Peavey's input goes into a preamp circuit because the signal it expects to receive isn't strong enough to go directly into a power amp. You'd be expecting the signal coming from a power amp to go into that input. I don't know if it would do damage, but I suppose it might. It will certainly sound distorted.

In any case, as you can see from the passage you quote, you can't go directly into that speaker even if the Peavey had a direct input for the speaker. The amp in the Carvin isn't designed to go into less than 8 ohms.

That input should take a line-level signal, though. Just make sure the gain is set low to start. Try it and see if it's adequate and doesn't also distort. From the picture I'm not sure which of the outputs to use. Does the Carvin manual say what level the XLR out it? Can the tuner out be used as an output to a monitor? I can't seem to find a manual for this amp on the Carvin site. It would be better, though, to use a powered monitor that's more designed for the job. Not only are these connections not exactly the right ones, you're dealing with an amp designed to amplify electric guitar. Even at it's best, it's not going to have the frequency range to properly reproduce acoustic guitar (or acoustic guitar and vocals).

Louis

[RustyAxe]

No, the extension speaker jack carries an powerful amplified signal ... you can NOT hook that up to a powered speaker. You COULD use the headphone out, or the XLR direct out to a powered speaker or guitar amp (but watch the levels! Start at the least and work your way up.). You could also use the effect send to a powered speaker. Those outputs all carry line level audio.

As to the impedance, the internal speaker is 8 ohms, and an external speaker must be 8 ohms or greater (keeping the combined impedance less than 4 ohms rating of the amp). Using an 8 ohm extension speaker increases the power by 50 watts (less impedance). The power boost is negligible to the ear, but the added speaker surface area increase the volume quite a bit.

[GRIMland]

Thanks again for the help guys, it's helping a lot.

Here's the info from the manual concerning the outputs:

"Direct Out:
variable OFF to +4dBu, DC isolated, 100ohm gnd lift

14. EFFECT LOOP SEND & RETURN JACKS
The SEND jack is the output of the preamp and is designed to deliver the
proper level to the input of an external effects processor. The SEND
signal source is after the TONE CONTROLS and DSP EFFECTS. The RETURN
jack is designed to receive signals from the output of an external effects
processor. When a signal is plugged into the RETURN, it breaks the
connection between the preamp and the internal power amp. The RETURN
signal goes through the MASTER control to the power amp.

15. DIRECT OUT LEVEL (DIRECT OUT, TUNER/PHONES)
The DIRECT OUT LEVEL controls the output level of the XLR DIRECT
OUT and the 1/4” PHONES/TUNER jack. This contains the mixed signal
from the channels affected by the tone controls, internal DSP and the
effects loop. The DIRECT OUT level is not affected by the MASTER level.

16. DIRECT OUTPUT XLR JACK
The DIRECT OUT XLR jack provides a balanced output for going direct
to the main PA or recording input. The output level is adjusted from the
front panel DIRECT OUT LEVEL control. The DIRECT OUT signal is not
affected by the MASTER level. However, the signal is affected by the
channel VOLUME and TONE controls, internal EFF1/EFF2, and the EFFECT
LOOP. The XLR is protected against Phantom power (DC voltage) on
cables coming from phantom powered mixer inputs. Ground pin 1 of
the XLR is lifted to 100 ohms above the chassis ground to prevent hum
from grounding issues"

Originally Posted by RustyAxe

As to the impedance, the internal speaker is 8 ohms, and an external speaker must be 8 ohms or great (keeping the combined impedance less than 4 ohms rating of the amp). Using an 8 ohm extension speaker increases the power by 50 watts (less impedance). The power boost is negligible to the ear, but the added speaker surface area increase the volume quite a bit.

I noticed it mentioned that in the manual - that the amp was 200w, but 250w with ext. speaker [from manual: 200W @ 8 Ohms, THD <1%, 250W @ 4 Ohms, THD <1%]. Just to clarify, hooking the main amp to an 8 ohm ext speaker brings the total combined impedance to 4 ohm, thus providing increased wattage?

I noticed the extension speaker that just came out to match the AG200 is 16 ohm (the AG100D ext is 8 ohm). How would a 16 ohm impedance ext. cab affect wattage & volume?

[FYI for the Carvin manuals, http://www.carvinguitars.com/guitara...sticseries.php under each product photo there is a "buy/more info" and "data sheet pdf" button]

[donh]

Originally Posted by GRIMland

I noticed the extension speaker that just came out to match the AG200 is 16 ohm (the AG100D ext is 8 ohm). How would a 16 ohm impedance ext. cab affect wattage & volume?

As said before, the wattage change for even an 8-ohm external cabinet is not enough to care about. The efficiency and size of the speaker involved is going to tell you more.

And you really need a level control (at the very least) in place to adjust the speaker pointed back at you.
.

[RustyAxe]

Originally Posted by GRIMland

Just to clarify, hooking the main amp to an 8 ohm ext speaker brings the total combined impedance to 4 ohm, thus providing increased wattage?

Yep, that's it pretty much it.

I noticed the extension speaker that just came out to match the AG200 is 16 ohm (the AG100D ext is 8 ohm). How would a 16 ohm impedance ext. cab affect wattage & volume?

It would slightly decrease the impedance (but keep you above 4 ohms, which is what you want to do) and increase the power out. As I said in my earlier post, you'd be ok with any speaker of 8 ohms or greater. Too little impedance causes the final amplifier to run hot ... most amps should not be run at less than their minimum impedance. Some can take less than 4 ohms, most can not.

[mchalebk]

The extension speaker out is designed to supplement FOH. It could be used for a monitor, but you'd want a passive speaker (8 ohms or greater, as already talked about). Ideally, you'd want an attenuator built into the speaker so you could knock the volume down (something like the passive Galaxy Hot Spot).

In my opinion, your best bet is to use the Direct Out into a powered speaker of some sort. I would not recommend an electric guitar amp, however (just not designed for this application). Either a powered PA speaker or an acoustic amp would work fine.

Also, depending on the situation, you might find you can place the AG300 to your side, or slightly behind, and have that do double duty as FOH and monitor.

[El Conquistador]

Originally Posted by mchalebk

Also, depending on the situation, you might find you can place the AG300 to your side, or slightly behind, and have that do double duty as FOH and monitor.

This!

I really do not see a need for an extension speaker simply for the sake of a monitor. Check out Carvin's video on this speaker at 1 min 40 seconds: http://www.carvinguitars.com/products/AG300. As you can see, they actually advertise using it as your own FOH monitor.

Steve

[GRIMland]

Great ideas, I appreciate everyone's input (no pun intended). Like was recommended I'll probably pass on the ext. speaker unless I start playing gigs big enough to require more spread and volume to FOH.

What I've done so far is to have the AG300 beside me, slightly in front, to be able to monitor myself but the vocals get pretty muddy when the speaker isn't pointing right at you.

I also like the Galaxy Hot Spot passive idea. Something to think about

Thanks again guys

[mchalebk]

Originally Posted by GRIMland

I also like the Galaxy Hot Spot passive idea. Something to think about

Back in the 80s, that's what I used. I had a cheap (but pretty decent sounding) set of Peavey 12" PA speakers and a powered mixer. Ran the Hot Spot in parallel with the mains. I lived in Wichita at the time and bought the Hot Spot right from the Galaxy Audio store. It worked great.

Caveat: a handful of years ago, I got to compare my old Hot Spot to the new ones and mine blew the new ones away. For $139, they're probably still a good choice for acoustic guitar and vocals; it's unfortunate that they don't sound nearly as good as they used to.

[El Conquistador]

Originally Posted by GRIMland

but the vocals get pretty muddy when the speaker isn't pointing right at you.

One of the things I really like about the SA220 is it's wide dispersion line array speakers that allow me to acutally have the amp a few inches ahead of me and still hear it clear as crystal.

Steve

[GRIMland]

Originally Posted by El Conquistador

One of the things I really like about the SA220 is it's wide dispersion line array speakers that allow me to acutally have the amp a few inches ahead of me and still hear it clear as crystal.

Steve

I was really close to buying the fishstick either new or used, but eventually realized that is didn't have the low frequency range required for piano/keyboards low tuned 12 strings, and bass guitars that I was looking for, plus I didn't want to limit myself to two inputs.