LR Baggs Lyric?

[Doug Young]

I'd consider adjusting the sound of your monitors if the audience sound is what you want. For sure, any pickup is going to sound worse thru a lesser PA, that's really the part of the signal chain that makes the biggest difference.

I posted these K&K/Lyric demos a long time back, for what it's worth:

This is "stereo" with the K&Ks on the left, Lyric on the right. The stereo effect is going to make them sound bigger than life, but makes it easy to switch between channels to hear one or the other:

http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/mp3/L..._KK_stereo.mp3

and here's the same setup in mono, both pickups blended equally, I believe:

http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/mp3/L...ic_KK_mono.mp3

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I'd consider adjusting the sound of your monitors if the audience sound is what you want. For sure, any pickup is going to sound worse thru a lesser PA, that's really the part of the signal chain that makes the biggest difference.

I posted these K&K/Lyric demos a long time back, for what it's worth:

This is "stereo" with the K&Ks on the left, Lyric on the right. The stereo effect is going to make them sound bigger than life, but makes it easy to switch between channels to hear one or the other:

http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/mp3/L..._KK_stereo.mp3

and here's the same setup in mono, both pickups blended equally, I believe:

http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/mp3/L...ic_KK_mono.mp3

Doug, what I was hearing in the monitors is exactly what the crowd was hearing out front. The problem is that out front with larger speakers, the tone was quite good. The monitors had 15" speakers but the Lyric is just thin sounding and bright. I think I just need that enhanced bass, even if the tone out front was very good.

I had thought about a K&K/Lyric set up but I did run into a bit of feedback with just the Lyric so I want to try something a bit more feedback resistant like the Soloist. It's just a lot to spend for a dual source system. I still need to figure out the noise that I am getting with the Lyric though.

[Yamaha Man]

For what it's worth, in my practice rig I use a Lyric pickup in my D-35, and throw a Shure Beta 57A mic in front of the guitar and blend both together and get a great sound. You might want to try simply adding a mic.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

Doug, what I was hearing in the monitors is exactly what the crowd was hearing out front. The problem is that out front with larger speakers, the tone was quite good. The monitors had 15" speakers but the Lyric is just thin sounding and bright. I think I just need that enhanced bass, even if the tone out front was very good.

Not sure I get it. The sound out front was good, and you heard exactly what the audience heard, but what you heard wasn't good? I guess you want something that doesn't sound as good, but has an exaggerated bass? That's ok, that's what all the the personal monitoring stuff is about - everyone needs to hear something different to play well, and it may not be what sounds good out front. So you just need a way to control what you hear separately.

Maybe you can EQ the monitors to have more bass, or turn down the tweeters to have less highs? Incidently, that's also related to a common approach to monitoring guitar -it's possible to use a dual source system, like a UST and a mic. Feed the UST to the monitos, so you hear yourself loud with less chance of feedback, but a crappy sound. Feed the audience mostly mic, so what they hear sounds better. Then you're both happy. You might be able to do that with the Lyric+something else, so it's worth a try.

[Doug Young]

incidently, a combo I kind of liked was a Sunrise+Lyric. Definitely added some low end (and would add feedback resistance)

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Not sure I get it. The sound out front was good, and you heard exactly what the audience heard, but what you heard wasn't good? I guess you want something that doesn't sound as good, but has an exaggerated bass? That's ok, that's what all the the personal monitoring stuff is about - everyone needs to hear something different to play well, and it may not be what sounds good out front. So you just need a way to control what you hear separately.

Maybe you can EQ the monitors to have more bass, or turn down the tweeters to have less highs? Incidently, that's also related to a common approach to monitoring guitar -it's possible to use a dual source system, like a UST and a mic. Feed the UST to the monitos, so you hear yourself loud with less chance of feedback, but a crappy sound. Feed the audience mostly mic, so what they hear sounds better. Then you're both happy. You might be able to do that with the Lyric+something else, so it's worth a try.

I realize that sounds a bit odd, but I just find for my personal playing, I need a bit more of a round sound through the monitors. I think out front with larger speakers and subs the Lyric can sound very good and did sound good but with one monitor pointed at me, the strings sounded thin and there was a lack of body to my tone. Kind of sounds like my dreadnought was now a parlour guitar or even smaller. For strumming I could make it work but whenever I started to finger pick or solo, I immediately noticed the thin single note tone.

I just think adding a second source would give me exactly the tone I need. I am not sure if it will be the soloist but it does seem like a great option.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I realize that sounds a bit odd, but I just find for my personal playing, I need a bit more of a round sound through the monitors. I think out front with larger speakers and subs the Lyric can sound very good and did sound good but with one monitor pointed at me, the strings sounded thin and there was a lack of body to my tone. Kind of sounds like my dreadnought was now a parlour guitar or even smaller. For strumming I could make it work but whenever I started to finger pick or solo, I immediately noticed the thin single note tone.

The danger, of course, is that you'll believe what you hear in the monitors. You'll hear a big bass, so you'll respond by not digging in as much as you might, and now the audience hears less bass, and you don't sound so good anymore out front. Monitors in general are a huge pain :-)

[se7ent7]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I am just wondering how you used the Fishman with the Lyric? I assume you have a passive Fishman UST because wouldn't two active sources not work together? I have considered trying the Barbera soloist and adding it to the Lyric since it's passive, I am just worried about spending close to $400.00 on the Barbera only to then starting soldering it to the lyric.

Here's my one problem with the lyric that I can't seem to solve; it has some noise to it. I contacted Lr Baggs and the person I spoke to just told me that all he could hear was the Lyric being turned up but it was hard to get recorded in a video. It's as if the Lyric doubles the normal hiss from my speakers but makes it sound a bit hollow. It's very, very hard to explain. I just have no idea what would be causing it.

No, like I said, it's the active Fishman/Martin F1 Analog system that comes with the performing artist series 4 Martins. I have no problem with crosstalk, possibly because of the cable I use (a Proel diehard DH540LU3).

The Lyric has a bit of hiss naturally. I bothered me a bit at the beginning, but it's really fine. Get used to it. You can't hear it when the signal is present. Otherwise use a noise gate.

Originally Posted by bnjp

In my experience, the Anthem SL has the best low end of the Tru-mic series. My understanding of the reason is that most of the low end comes from the undersaddle Element and the mic carries the balance of the tones. Even when the presence on the mic is turned all the way up, the lows still come from the Element. Anthem SL is definitely my vote.
You do have the option of adding a passive source like the K&K Pure, a passive undersaddle pup, M1 passive, or M80 in passive mode to the lyric. You'll need to use a TRS cable and it will need to be mixed outboard, but there is an input on the circuit board of the Lyric for a 2nd source to be added.

The problem is you cant control much of the Baggs Element signal - With my solution you can. My Lyric+Fishman UST kills any Anthem I've heard. Mostly because the Lyric's TruMic sound is better than the Anthem's.

Originally Posted by bnjp

You do have the option of adding a passive source like the K&K Pure, a passive undersaddle pup, M1 passive, or M80 in passive mode to the lyric. You'll need to use a TRS cable and it will need to be mixed outboard, but there is an input on the circuit board of the Lyric for a 2nd source to be added.

It's not about a passive source but a low impedance source. The K&K (and passive UST) doesn't fall under the list of pups you can wire to the Lyric without apparent crosstalk issues, but as with my setup above, this doesn't seem to be an problem. Doug also mentions no perceivable crosstalk when he did his K&K + Lyric tests.

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Maybe you can EQ the monitors to have more bass, or turn down the tweeters to have less highs? Incidently, that's also related to a common approach to monitoring guitar -it's possible to use a dual source system, like a UST and a mic. Feed the UST to the monitos, so you hear yourself loud with less chance of feedback, but a crappy sound. Feed the audience mostly mic, so what they hear sounds better. Then you're both happy. You might be able to do that with the Lyric+something else, so it's worth a try.

This is what I wanted to say now too, HOWEVER, I think it's good and important to hear exactly what the audience hears, and it being pleasing to you at the same time. I think the audience/FOH sound would benefit anyway from a little directness, warmth and low end of a second source. I've sepcifically experimented with this (FOH Lyric only vs. Lyric+UST), and came to this conclusion.

Originally Posted by Doug Young

incidently, a combo I kind of liked was a Sunrise+Lyric. Definitely added some low end (and would add feedback resistance)

Yes, a sunrise , or like I suggested the Dimarzio angel if you're on a budget for a pseudo Sunrise tone, would be great IF you can live with a magnetic tone. I personally can't and prefer SBTs and even USTs above the mags.

Another thing: Doug and many people will suggest EQing the second source to provide the low end and the Lyric for mids and highs. I used it like this for a while, and it may be the answer for you, but I'm actually getting the best tone by letting both pickups do their full range thing (within limits). I still push the bass a bit on the UST and cut some on the Lyric but not nearly as much as most people would suggest.

Lastly phase makes a huge difference for me. Try to have a setup where you can change the phase of one of the two sources. If they're out of phase or semi out of phase it's hard to get a good sound. With me F1 analog I'm lucky to have four phase/EQ settings to cycle through. At each venue a different one seems to be the sweet spot.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by se7ent7

No, like I said, it's the active Fishman/Martin F1 Analog system that comes with the performing artist series 4 Martins. I have no problem with crosstalk, possibly because of the cable I use (a Proel diehard DH540LU3).

The Lyric has a bit of hiss naturally. I bothered me a bit at the beginning, but it's really fine. Get used to it. You can't hear it when the signal is present. Otherwise use a noise .

I still don't understand how you wired two active pickups together through one jack? I have never heard of this before and did not think it would work. Do you use a battery for each pickup? I would think that, that would cause issues.

I have spoken to a Baggs tech and apparently the Lyric is supposed to be silent. How's can come from the presence control so maybe ours is set too high. I wouldn't use a noise gate those as they rob certain dynamics of a pickup.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

The danger, of course, is that you'll believe what you hear in the monitors. You'll hear a big bass, so you'll respond by not digging in as much as you might, and now the audience hears less bass, and you don't sound so good anymore out front. Monitors in general are a huge pain :-)

Monitors are terrible to work with, I agree with you on that! Having said that, I don't really want a massive bass tone in my monitors. I am just used to have a UST pickup in my guitar where my guitar sounded much larger when plugged in. I find it's actually easier to dig in when my notes seem to have some fullness to them. The Lyric made my strings sound so thin.

I had thought about using a simple Matrix UST with the Lyric but I did not think that was possible since they are both active. I also have a B-Band UST, which plugs into the preamp box that B-Band uses inside the guitar. I could try wiring that to the Lyric but I doubt it would provide enough output.

[dguitar]

I had a Lyric in my Taylor 855 and it sounded boxy, thin, all of the bad sounds mentioned by others. I was able to get a workable sound out of it running through a Boss GT-8.
Since I bought if from Sweetwater, I had a 2 year warranty. About 1 month before the end of the warranty, it died and was replaced. The new one sounds much better. I run it through a simple keyboard/pa amp at home and it sounds just like the guitar. I will be playing it soon at a gig for the first time.
If anyone is interested, I can post an update later in the week.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

Monitors are terrible to work with, I agree with you on that! Having said that, I don't really want a massive bass tone in my monitors. I am just used to have a UST pickup in my guitar where my guitar sounded much larger when plugged in.

I think this comes back to the conclusion several of us reached when the Lyric came out. Everyone *says* they want "just like my guitar only louder", and in my experience the Lyric comes pretty close to that. But most people don't really want that, they want "larger than life", even if that sounds nothing like their guitar, even if it sounds like a quacky UST, because that's what we've gotten used to.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I think this comes back to the conclusion several of us reached when the Lyric came out. Everyone *says* they want "just like my guitar only louder", and in my experience the Lyric comes pretty close to that. But most people don't really want that, they want "larger than life", even if that sounds nothing like their guitar, even if it sounds like a quacky UST, because that's what we've gotten used to.

It really is a bit of a compromise. I think the Lyric is fantastic because it really does sound natural and it's actually very feedback resistant. It just needs a bit of bass from another pickup to really make it shine. I actually have two jacks in my guitar at the moment so I am tempted to experiment by installing other systems and running two cables out to see how I like the blended tone. It will at least give me an idea if this is something that will work for me.

I should mention that although my guitar is a dreadnought body style, I do find it to be a bit bright and lacking in bass when compared to something like a Martin dread. My guitar is a Taylor 310 limited edition with koa back and sides. I have a feeling that if I was using a warmer and bass heavy guitar, I might not notice the lack of bass as much. It was the same issue when I tried a Gibson with the Amulet M. The Gibson was great but a bit bright and the pickup was amplifying this.

[se7ent7]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I still don't understand how you wired two active pickups together through one jack? I have never heard of this before and did not think it would work. Do you use a battery for each pickup? I would think that, that would cause issues.

I desoldered the wires from the factory jack, and wired them to the second input lug (and ground) available on the Lyric. You can get this information (with pictures) on this forum or from Baggs themselves. They each use their own battery yes (the Fishman F1 system has built-in battery compartment like taylors in the end block, the Baggs one is in it's pouch at the neck block).
I think you can probably wire them both to one battery though. I'll try this sometime.

In conclusion, you can wire any pickup to the Lyric's second input lug that is provided, the only issue is crosstalk - and I maintain it's not really an issue. But if it bothers you, try a passive magnetic - which is the "correct" one to use as a second source according to Baggs.

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I had thought about using a simple Matrix UST with the Lyric but I did not think that was possible since they are both active. I also have a B-Band UST, which plugs into the preamp box that B-Band uses inside the guitar. I could try wiring that to the Lyric but I doubt it would provide enough output.

I'm sure a passive UST would also work especially with a "double" type stereo cable like I use.
I don't see why your B-Band wouldn't have enough output... You can always crank up the gain on your pre-amp/blender.
I'm currently using a Zoom A3 which has a second input for mics. The Lyric and Fishman's outputs are comparable at full volume (on their volume controls).

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I should mention that although my guitar is a dreadnought body style, I do find it to be a bit bright and lacking in bass when compared to something like a Martin dread. My guitar is a Taylor 310 limited edition with koa back and sides. I have a feeling that if I was using a warmer and bass heavy guitar, I might not notice the lack of bass as much. It was the same issue when I tried a Gibson with the Amulet M. The Gibson was great but a bit bright and the pickup was amplifying this.

I also hada Taylor 310 (standard sapele). Was very light on the bass, one of the reasons I sold it, but with the barn door fishman active UST system it had there was always enough plugged in, so I would suggest a UST/SBT or mag for a second source for your Lyric in this guitar.

If I were you I'd get a K&K pure western mini or JJB, and install it alongside the Lyric. You won't have to worry about the seperate battery issue, and you'd have a better sounding second source than most USTs.

By coincidence I almost have a Amulet M on order for my rather bright Gibson advanced jumbo :-/

[stevecuss]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I think this comes back to the conclusion several of us reached when the Lyric came out. Everyone *says* they want "just like my guitar only louder", and in my experience the Lyric comes pretty close to that. But most people don't really want that, they want "larger than life", even if that sounds nothing like their guitar, even if it sounds like a quacky UST, because that's what we've gotten used to.

+1 to Doug.

Incidentally, me saying '+1 to Doug' is like Luke Skywalker endorsing Obi Wan's opinion....

The Lyric's weakness is the lack of enhanced bass response that performers have been used to for decades. So yeah, adding another source, or switching the Lyric for an Anthem will assist greatly.

But it sounds to me that your primary issue is the quality of your monitor speaker, more than than an issue with the Lyric. If the Lyric sounds great in the house but not on stage, I think you are left with 4 options:

1) Upgrade the monitor system.
2) Eq the monitor and hope the bass doesn't feedback. (incidentally, I'm pretty sure the Lyric has some crazy multi band compressor in the preamp that doesn't allow much bass boosting.)
3) Live with the reality that monitor sound is often subpar.
4) Add a UST or K&K or switch out for an Anthem which is sort of a 'lyric plus enhanced bass' solution.

I have an Anthem in my jumbo Mcilroy. My buddy has a Lyric in his Collings OM and a K&K in his Goodall SJ. Of course each instrument is unique, but:

Mcilroy: very plug and play, mild quack from UST, great bass for days.
Collings: Cuts through a rock band, I can't believe the lyric can play that volume without feedback. Sounds thin on the low end when solo.
Goodall: most feedback prone, but gorgeous bass rich finger style.

good luck! What a maddening chase we are all on. We buy the guitar of our dreams and then spend crazy money trying to make it sound like it did before we plugged it in.