OM vs GA, and "neo-classicals"

[runamuck]

At some point in size a guitar top will be too big for the relatively weak power of classical strings to drive it. I don't know what that size is but would guess that a traditional classic size is optimal given that luthiers have been messing around with various classical sizes and shapes for a long, long time.

[RJVB]

I didn't mention that this confused memory of mine of the OM as a converted/ex-archtop also had something about where the "orchestra" label comes from. What's the real origin of that name?

Originally Posted by Earl49

The GA also has the same 16" lower bout width as a typical dreadnought. FWIW.

I knew that the GA shape is basically a scaled-down jumbo, but given that my own (mini)jumbo was a 16" and that Dowina's hybrids (as well as the Breedlove ones?) use the GA shape I had gotten it in my mind that a GA is <16". I can't seem to find if they build them to the exact proportions of the original design (scale) so that probably means they do.

There's a video of Steve Cooney demoing his new granadillo GAC hybrid, and that guitar does sound very nice but with his playing style it's to tell impossible from this single recording how different it would sound from a standard CG.

But it's true, 16" seems very wide for a nylon stringer's *flat* top (unless maybe you make it a double-top with a nomex centre layer.

EDIT: maybe this is also why Taylor's xx4 nylon models often sound anemic to me?

Originally Posted by printer2

So nobody like Cordoba using the X brace, just a lone luthier?

Not in traditional classical guitars, to my knowledge. Cordoba are known for those, they sell chiefly to CG players so they build what those people ask for. And there aren't many who know that X-bracing is not just for "folk" guitars.
EDIT: But Cort is a pretty big company and they do have that one X-braced model.

Originally Posted by koolimy

Hi Mr. RJVB, I think I've seen you in the Delcamp forums. Nice to see you here too!
I don't have experience playing OMs but I've listened to hundreds of soundclips on websites like DreamGuitars, and IMO a GA (I like to call them Small Jumbos) sounds like a bigger, fatter OM. It was peculiar how similar they sounded, compared to something like a Dreadnought. It's just that every note, especially the trebles, had more thickness to them on the GA vs the OM.

That's probably the 1st time I'm being "mistered" on a forum, not sure if it makes me feel old or appreciated, haha.

But finally some real answers to my main question!

As for suitability for Neo-Classical, my mind would go to the OM size. I know Mr. Carruth has made a neo-classical using the 000 body shape (which is the 12 fret version of the OM) and X bracing, and he said that it worked okay.

I had forgotten about that but given Alan's experience I'm certain it worked more than okay. He has also built classical archtops that are at least as large and I got the impression he's waiting for someone to commission another one that will be even larger because he's certain that will be possible even with nylon strings.

[nikpearson]

The trend seems to be for crossover guitars to have a construction closer to a classical guitar but with a narrower fingerboard, often radiused.

Lowden make a really nice crossover guitar, the SxxJ models. This has typical Lowden bracing (x) but much lighter. I actually like these instruments quite a bit as they sound very different to a fan-braced instruments. The body size is roughly equivalent to a deep 000 or OM.

Takamine also use an x-brace in their crossover instruments.

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by nikpearson

Lowden make a really nice crossover guitar, the SxxJ models. [...]
Takamine also use an x-brace in their crossover instruments.

Didn't know about Takamine crossovers but I have their entire range down as instruments meant to be plugged in, which means I never even look at them anymore.

The Lowden however ... had a discussion about them on my jazzguitar forum because they're marketed as their jazz line. My opinion and the consensus was that they're very disappointing and apparently added to the catalog for "us too" reasons and are aimed at (Lowden) steelstring players who're looking for a nylon stringer that they can play with minimum adaptation. Hunt down the Peghead Nation demo of one of them to hear what I mean.
And this is knowing that George Lowden is capable of building concert-grade classical guitars.

I just listened to a few steel-string OM vs GA comparisons, but have yet to find one that compares within a single brand, with identical wood choices and sporting the same strings. That said, the OMs tend to sound a little too jingly and with too little bottom-end to my taste. That's a usual problem I have with steel strings where the basses never seem to attain that warm darkness you can get with nylon strings and the trebles are overly present and, well, jingly. But that difference (between the models) could work in my favour in a nylon-string version; one thing I reproach the traditional classical/Spanish guitar is boomy basses and trebles that lack a bell-like/singing quality. (The latter is why narrow waist and shoulders combined with x-bracing to use more of the top appeal to me.)

[RJVB]

I'd completely forgotten about the McIlroy AS36CN, which is a CG-sized jumbo with x-bracing. At this scale a jumbo really looks a lot like a standard classical but the size of the soundhole is a giveaway (or maybe it just appears larger because further "north")?



It's gorgeous and I did consider this commissioning one through TFOA but somehow never found the video above, only the one below which really does the guitar no justice with a single mic pointed at the soundhole (and very low gain). Based on that and my experience with a steel-string mini-jumbo it seemed too likely that this model would indeed have a different sound, but "in the wrong direction".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SmAwBae3mQ

I'm still curious about it though.

[nikpearson]

And the McIlroy crossover is likely derived from one of his smaller steel-string bodies. Heavily Lowden-influenced, the sound should be quite similar to Lowden’s SxxJ models. This is certainly the case with the steel-string models.

It’s interesting you’ve heard poor reports of the Lowden Jazz models. For a crossover guitar they are lovely, with the x-brace providing a very different tonal flavour to a traditional classical guitar. More whump and thump; less overtone and complexity. The original Jazz model was designed for Nick Webb of Acoustic Alchemy. George Lowden also builds concert classical guitars under his own name, but these are a very different proposition.

In the past, I’ve had an S25J and S32J. Different sounding, but with strong similarities. I wouldn’t dismiss these out of hand without trying one. The only reason I no longer have one is my nylon string playing is mainly classical repertoire and that simply sounds better on a lighter, more responsive instrument.

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by nikpearson

And the McIlroy crossover is likely derived from one of his smaller steel-string bodies. Heavily Lowden-influenced, the sound should be quite similar to Lowden’s SxxJ models. This is certainly the case with the steel-string models.

That wouldn't surprise me if there's anything like an Irish heritage in guitars. (And if that's in any way comparable to the one in whisky it will be a safe bet that it's not for me )
That said, being Lowden influenced doesn't mean that the build cannot be better suited for nylon string playing - the fact that they don't come with a pickup by default suggests that even.

It’s interesting you’ve heard poor reports of the Lowden Jazz models. ... The only reason I no longer have one is my nylon string playing is mainly classical repertoire and that simply sounds better on a lighter, more responsive instrument.

It's more the opposite: the reports I got were confirmation of my own impression about them, based on listening to about every available recording on YT. They're probably perfect for people who want a nylon-version of the kind of sound they're used to with their kind of playing (but there's nothing particularly jazzy about them and I find it rather telling that someone like Steve Cooney plays Irish music on a Dowina hybrid).
Personally have always been first and foremost a non-steel-string player with somewhat of a long-standing prejudice against traditional classical guitars that I've seen confirmed when I started playing myself.