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  #1  
Old 12-21-2016, 08:20 PM
Riverwolf Riverwolf is offline
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Default Why such disdain for pre-slotted nuts?

After an 18 month procrastination, I finally swapped out the nut on my Yamaha LS6M A.R.E.
These are sold as having a 1.75 inch nut but they do not.
Some sites say 44mm, whatever that is.
My measurements show just barely wider than 1 11/16 inches.
I swapped with a tusk nut from Graphtech.
All of the string notches looked exactly like the old nut and practically no sanding was required to seat the new nut in the slot. The height was perfect and all I need is to scribe and sand the width and then I will be done.
There was plenty of room for the extra string width and now this guitar is a true 1 75 inches.
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  #2  
Old 12-21-2016, 09:41 PM
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Bruce Sexauer Bruce Sexauer is offline
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We call it the nut width, but it is really the width of the fingerboard we're talking about, which dictates the width of the nut. If the nut doesn't fit the end of the fingerboard it is not right. Which doesn't mean you can't do it, many guitars are not right in this way. Probably because they were fitted with preslotted nuts.
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  #3  
Old 12-21-2016, 11:42 PM
John Arnold John Arnold is offline
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Take it from a full-time repairman for the past 32 years:
It sounds like you were extremely lucky.....it doesn't happen that way very often.
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Old 12-22-2016, 06:59 AM
Sperry Sperry is offline
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If the nut doesn't fit, you must refile it ...

I've just put Graphtech on the last two refurbs. Nice product.
On the second, even to my clogged ears, I heard a difference.
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  #5  
Old 12-22-2016, 07:27 AM
Riverwolf Riverwolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer View Post
If the nut doesn't fit the end of the fingerboard it is not right. Which doesn't mean you can't do it, many guitars are not right in this way. Probably because they were fitted with preslotted nuts.
I suppose that you are correct.
However this remains a viable choice for those like myself on a budget.
I simply could not adjust to the original supplied Yamaha nut.
As for the width, Graphtech says that they are made wide to accommodate different guitar makes and models.
Two hours of playing last night had zero string slippage on either E string.
When you make a nut from scratch don't you start a little wide and sand/shape to fit?
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Old 12-22-2016, 09:32 AM
redir redir is offline
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Extremely lucky or perhaps you just don't realize that it's actually not right

The problem with pre-slotted nuts is that when they slot them at the factory or wherever it's done they come to you with nice rounded nut slots that fit the strings well. So you don't want to touch those and as such the only way to get the height correct is to sand at the bottom. That's simply not the way it's done and you will never, outside of extreme luck, get all the slots right that way.
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Old 12-22-2016, 10:00 AM
John Arnold John Arnold is offline
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Quote:
When you make a nut from scratch don't you start a little wide and sand/shape to fit?
Yes, but fitting the ends is the easy part. If the radius of your pre-made nut is not exactly the same as the fingerboard, all the strings cannot be made the optimum height by sanding the bottom. Also, it is unlikely that the string spacing can be optimized, because that is not only a function of fingerboard width. Fret height and fret end bevel also determine how close to the edges the outer strings can be set.
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Old 12-22-2016, 10:41 AM
Ned Milburn Ned Milburn is offline
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I have had clients bring me "pre-slotted" "ready-to-fit" nuts where the string spacing was not accurate nor appropriate. Plus, I bevel the nuts I make from the headstock laminate to the slot area, so there is usually close to 3.5mm width for the strings to pass through the slots. Elegant looking, and very well functioning.

Then, there is string spacing - distance of E-strings from edge of frets/fingerboard as well as string-to-string spacing. I customize the E-string distance from f/board edge according to the player's needs and the guitar itself (sometimes fret end bevels are limiting). Then, rather than centre to centre spacing or edge to edge spacing, I use a hybrid.

This simply cannot be done carte blanche by pre-made nuts.

And John and others make some good points above that I don't need to repeat.

FWIW, I have never noticed an audible difference in tone by changing a nut, other than in rare cases when the nut was just WAY too low and there was buzzing on open strings.
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Old 12-22-2016, 10:47 AM
Hot Vibrato Hot Vibrato is offline
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"Disdain" may be a strong word, but I'm not a fan of pre-slotted nuts for the reasons that have already been stated - they're almost never a good fit, and the spacing is never ideal. Furthermore, the synthetic materials often used for pre-slotted nuts aren't as good as the real thing - bone is superior to "tusq", and graphite is better than "graph tech".

The other problem with pre-fabricated nuts is that people think they can install them without proper tools or training. Not only does the job require a graduated set of nut files, but it also takes a skilled tech with a keen eye to cut each slot to the proper depth, and this is arguably the most critical adjustment on the guitar. A couple thousandths of an inch too high, and the action is unnecessarily stiff. A couple thousandths too deep, and you've blown it.

Since you really need a skilled professional to properly install a pre-manufactured nut anyways, you may as well just have them do the whole thing from scratch if it's a decent guitar. It's definitely worth the time and expense.
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Old 12-22-2016, 11:37 AM
Sperry Sperry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ned Milburn View Post
FWIW, I have never noticed an audible difference in tone by changing a nut, other than in rare cases when the nut was just WAY too low and there was buzzing on open strings.
There was a strip of credit card shimming the last nut. Maybe that was the issue, maybe not. Could also have been humidity changes.

As far as nut spacing, I am not happy with the 1 11/16" spacing on the last pre-slotted nut. A little wide for my hand. We'll see what the player has to say.

I had bought bone blanks, but they came in for electric guitar.

What happens on an acoustic when the nut is ⅛" wide?
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  #11  
Old 12-22-2016, 12:53 PM
Ned Milburn Ned Milburn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sperry View Post
What happens on an acoustic when the nut is ⅛" wide?
In this case, I do not use a bevel. Then you get your 3+mm width at the slots.
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  #12  
Old 12-22-2016, 02:12 PM
Riverwolf Riverwolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot Vibrato View Post
Since you really need a skilled professional to properly install a pre-manufactured nut anyways, you may as well just have them do the whole thing from scratch if it's a decent guitar. It's definitely worth the time and expense.
Maybe.
But my quote was close to $100.00 to cut and install a new bone nut with 1.75" string spacing. This includes a setup which I did not need but they would not do the nut without it. And I understand that.
My total cost was under $15.00
This is a sub $500.00 guitar and as far as I can tell everything is well within specs of a good setup.

I understand and admire the skills of the builders and repairmen on this forum.
But sometimes perspectives can be lacking.
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  #13  
Old 12-23-2016, 11:16 AM
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Bruce Sexauer Bruce Sexauer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverwolf View Post
Maybe.
But my quote was close to $100.00 to cut and install a new bone nut with 1.75" string spacing. This includes a setup which I did not need but they would not do the nut without it. And I understand that.
My total cost was under $15.00
This is a sub $500.00 guitar and as far as I can tell everything is well within specs of a good setup.

I understand and admire the skills of the builders and repairmen on this forum.
But sometimes perspectives can be lacking.
The cut of a nut makes or breaks a guitar. It does not matter what the guitar cost in the first place, and cutting a nut for a cheap guitar is no easier that cutting a nut for an expensive guitar, if anything the opposite as a cheap guitar may require special considerations due to its own deficiencies. I charge a hundred bucks for a nut and it is not a profit maker, it is a highly skilled production which separates the men from the boys in our field.
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  #14  
Old 12-23-2016, 02:17 PM
murrmac123 murrmac123 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer View Post
it is a highly skilled production which separates the men from the boys in our field.
With all due respect , Bruce, IMO the cutting of a nut is not something which separates the men from the boys anything like as much as fret finishing, neck carving, neatness of inlay etc etc (there are zillions of others)

The cutting and installation of a nut is a binary operation ...ie it either works properly or it doesn't. There is no middle ground ... if the nut works, then it works as well as every other nut that works. If it doesn't work, then it doesn't work, period. There are certainly degrees of malfunction, admittedly ... there are many things that can go wrong with a nut, and the worst examples will exhibit many faults, but it IMO it is erroneous to attribute the same degree of skill required to nut making and installation compared to other processes involved in luthiery which do require a high degree of skill. Nut making is simply measurement and mathematics, coupled with opposable thumbs.

Carving a scroll on a violin ... now that separates the men from the boys ...
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  #15  
Old 12-23-2016, 02:47 PM
LouieAtienza LouieAtienza is offline
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I have no disdain for them. It is what it is. If it works for you, that's great! If it doesn't then there are many skilled craftsmen who can perform the job admirably.
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