Apology to the arranging thread folks

[tbeltrans]

In arranging thread #2, I tried to be completely transparent as to my decision to focus for the near future on playing piano, my observations and reasons for doing so. I felt I owed it to those in these arranging threads, since I started both of them and there was possible expectations that I continue with another.

I could easily see from the follow up posts that my intent was not at all coming across clearly. I got a bit of feedback in private email to that effect also. So the evidence is clearly pointing in that direction. I don't know if it would have been any different in person or if I could attribute that to the nature of words only communication.

I apologize for making those posts. My intention, please believe me, was not at all what it was interpreted as. Because of that, rather than risk further communication problems, I would rather not try again to make my points and instead just apologize for having tried to do so in the first place.

The guitar is a fine instrument. I have always enjoyed playing it and will continue to do so moving forward. Enough said, and I sincerely hope this post is taken with the intent intact.

Thanks,

Tony

[reeve21]

Tony,

I have followed the arranging threads in lurk mode. I am brand new to finger style and don't have anything meaningful to contribute (still working on perfecting my 4th or 5th tabbed out song!).

Just want to say your intent was clear to me, and I didn't take it as being negative in any way. In fact I agree with a lot of what you say. I don't play out, but around the house my wife will stop and listen to me belt out an off pitch version of just about any of her favorite Springsteen songs and sing along. On the other hand last night I played Mark Hanson's Over and Out Rag for her. Been working on that piece for a month and quite proud to have it in some sort of shape. She was completely underwhelmed--because she doesn't know the tune.

95 per cent of the world has no interest in music that they haven't heard thousands of times before. We are all interested in what interests us, and not much more. I have no interest in any form of "retail therapy," which seems to make my dear wife just as happy as I am after playing my guitar :-)

It's all good....and best wishes with your volunteer efforts on piano, very admirable. Maybe you could bring a guitar along for a little change of pace once you have them in the palm of your hand!

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by reeve21

Tony,

I have followed the arranging threads in lurk mode. I am brand new to finger style and don't have anything meaningful to contribute (still working on perfecting my 4th or 5th tabbed out song!).

Just want to say your intent was clear to me, and I didn't take it as being negative in any way. In fact I agree with a lot of what you say. I don't play out, but around the house my wife will stop and listen to me belt out an off pitch version of just about any of her favorite Springsteen songs and sing along. On the other hand last night I played Mark Hanson's Over and Out Rag for her. Been working on that piece for a month and quite proud to have it in some sort of shape. She was completely underwhelmed--because she doesn't know the tune.

95 per cent of the world has no interest in music that they haven't heard thousands of times before. We are all interested in what interests us, and not much more. I have no interest in any form of "retail therapy," which seems to make my dear wife just as happy as I am after playing my guitar :-)

It's all good....and best wishes with your volunteer efforts on piano, very admirable. Maybe you could bring a guitar along for a little change of pace once you have them in the palm of your hand!

Thanks Bob! It means a lot to me that my posts were understood by some. You hit the nail on the head, and I appreciate that.

Tony

[LeftArm]

The internet is like walking on eggshells sometimes. I have been following but not contributing to the arranging posts. For what its worth:
I don't have any issue with your posts, people play music for different reasons and for different audiences. I think you are right that if you want to get the attention of a wider audience you have to play more popular music (on whatever instrument you prefer or is most suitable at the time).
I used to play classical guitar. That's really limited appeal and often fades into the background.
I'm thinking of getting a Banjo so I'm really going to be on my own. :-)

[Doug Young]

Hey Tony, I wasn't meaning to disagree with you, I thought I was agreeing/supporting. The issue that comes up repeatedly about solo guitar is that there's no audience for it, which is totally true, and which I thought you were also pointing out. I'd just encourage people, including you, to do what they like - for some it's the thrill of entertaining, in which case maybe solo guitar's not the ideal path. Others like other instruments. I'm a fan of piano, especially solo piano as well (wish I'd kept up those lessons as a kid). So if piano is what you like, that's great! So my apologies as well if my meaning wasn't clear.

[dkstott]

I too have been following in lurk mode. I didn't see anything offensive in your posts either.

I play strictly solo guitar; songs range from jazz, pop, classical. All of them are played solely for my own enjoyment. I have no burning desire to perform in public. Although, I do play out at an occasional open mic night when the mood strikes me.


All of the songs that I play are ones that have peaked my interest enough to figure out how to play. They are rarely chosen with any thought about whether others will like it or not. If I like it, that's all that matters.

When practicing, I'll get comments from my wife such as; "That's starting to sound like an actual song". Which is a result of her hearing me play snips of songs repeatedly as I break down tough part of songs. Or "I haven't heard that one in a while".. When a resurrect a song from my archives... LOL

There is a weekly guitar gathering that I attend that gets me my fill of standard pop songs, chord progressions, etc.. It's also very helpful in working on timing and a LOT more fun than playing along with a metronome...

[Mr. Jelly]

I don't really know what this is about though I'm pretty sure I read your post. Often the second post of a thread sets the tone for allot of the thread after that. It seems that the more a person tries to be understood the more off track it goes. There seems to be at least one person on a thread that is having a bad day and pokes at the OP. Relax and don't worry about it. For me I keep waiting for them to kick me of this forum. They'll wise up some day.
And do what you want. If you follow your bliss doors will open that never would have opened otherwise.

[Nailpicker]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Hey Tony, I wasn't meaning to disagree with you, I thought I was agreeing/supporting. The issue that comes up repeatedly about solo guitar is that there's no audience for it, which is totally true, and which I thought you were also pointing out. I'd just encourage people, including you, to do what they like - for some it's the thrill of entertaining, in which case maybe solo guitar's not the ideal path. Others like other instruments. I'm a fan of piano, especially solo piano as well (wish I'd kept up those lessons as a kid). So if piano is what you like, that's great! So my apologies as well if my meaning wasn't clear.

Like Doug, I hope you didn't take my post as being negative other than me stating my experience and perception are different than yours. My E & P are good and valid for me, as yours are for you. I did and do express my best wishes for you, and like Doug apologize if my meaning wasn't clear. Bottom line is you don't owe anyone an apology, a rationale or an explanation for doing what you want to do. Again, best wishes in your pursuit.

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by LeftArm

The internet is like walking on eggshells sometimes. I have been following but not contributing to the arranging posts. For what its worth:
I don't have any issue with your posts, people play music for different reasons and for different audiences. I think you are right that if you want to get the attention of a wider audience you have to play more popular music (on whatever instrument you prefer or is most suitable at the time).
I used to play classical guitar. That's really limited appeal and often fades into the background.
I'm thinking of getting a Banjo so I'm really going to be on my own. :-)

That will definitely do it.

Tony

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Hey Tony, I wasn't meaning to disagree with you, I thought I was agreeing/supporting. The issue that comes up repeatedly about solo guitar is that there's no audience for it, which is totally true, and which I thought you were also pointing out. I'd just encourage people, including you, to do what they like - for some it's the thrill of entertaining, in which case maybe solo guitar's not the ideal path. Others like other instruments. I'm a fan of piano, especially solo piano as well (wish I'd kept up those lessons as a kid). So if piano is what you like, that's great! So my apologies as well if my meaning wasn't clear.

Thanks Doug. I suppose I was relating to your post differently than you intended. This is the problem with just words.

What I have personally experienced is playing tunes as instrumental solos that people know (arranged pop tunes, for ragtime - the Entertainer, etc.). Nobody pays any attention at all. However, as soon as another person at the same situation, picks up a guitar and strums simple cowboy chords such as C, F, And G, but then SINGS, that person instantly has the audience. I have even had people ask "How come you don't sing?". They are not saying it as a complaint about my playing, but instead oicing a very common and popular expectation. If you walk into a room to play for people, you had better SING. One or two solo fingerpicking things might be OK, but that is all. The rest of it should be song.

Go to a song circle, and if you don't have a sheet with words no it so everyone can strum along and sing, keep it to yourself. So I just strum along, which can be enjoyable too, but does nothing for the hours spent learning to arrange and play pop tunes as fingerstyle solos.

Culturally, people have always seemed to accept that the piano is as much a solo instrument as for sing-alongs. I have never seen any piano player get the kind of reception that solo guitar gets. So, if I want to volunteer playing music, since I don't sing, it will need to be the piano. I love both instruments, so no problem other than cramming to get my piano playing up to speed.

Tony

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Nailpicker

Like Doug, I hope you didn't take my post as being negative other than me stating my experience and perception are different than yours. My E & P are good and valid for me, as yours are for you. I did and do express my best wishes for you, and like Doug apologize if my meaning wasn't clear. Bottom line is you don't owe anyone an apology, a rationale or an explanation for doing what you want to do. Again, best wishes in your pursuit.

Thanks Nailpicker. we have usually been quite in agreement on many issues in these forums, so the misunderstanding here could well be on my part.

It may well be that what I experience with solo guitar may be just the Twin Cities where I live, and other places may be much more open to this kind of playing. There are definitely fingerstyle players around here, but outside the music community, they are pretty much invisible. Definitely the kinds of places where I could volunteer would much prefer either solo piano or guitar WITH an ensemble of some kind.

My opportunities to play out are almost always either with a band or backing a singer. The only solo guitar that seems acceptable is maybe an interlude slot during a church service, but I don't go to church unless my wife gets a sudden desire to do so.

I do remember David Qualey telling me once that he moved to Europe because he couldn't find an audience here in the US. He has been doing fine over there, living in Germany, for many years now.

Somebody in the arranging thread mentioned the jazz folks not having an audience either. Several jazz musicians in the 40s, 50s, and 60s had to go to Europe to make a living. I am unclear as to how much of that was racial prejudice and how much was the lack of a jazz audience because both have been problems for jazz musicians here in the US during that period.

There is a joke that the difference between a rock guitarist and a jazz guitarist is that the rock guitarist plays 3 chords for 10,000 people, while a jazz guitarist plays 10,000 chords for 3 people.

There is a lot of truth to that.

Tony

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

I don't really know what this is about though I'm pretty sure I read your post. Often the second post of a thread sets the tone for allot of the thread after that. It seems that the more a person tries to be understood the more off track it goes. There seems to be at least one person on a thread that is having a bad day and pokes at the OP. Relax and don't worry about it. For me I keep waiting for them to kick me of this forum. They'll wise up some day.
And do what you want. If you follow your bliss doors will open that never would have opened otherwise.

Thanks Mr. Jelly. There is a lot of truth in your post.

Tony

[EllaMom]

Tony, you've said that you think piano is more conducive for volunteer "gigs"...and that might be right in most circumstances. But not all. I am a hospice volunteer, and most of my recent work has been at a nearby hospice house, where folks nearing end-of-life go for excellent and compassionate care in a setting that is less clinical than a hospital, but more supportive than can be found in many homes.

There is a piano in one room that is not central to the facility's layout. I've never heard anyone play it.

There is a central gathering area with soft seating, and a couple of other living room type areas. Patient rooms are situated in two wings, and at the hallway is more seating.

I know that my guitar teacher plays at this hospice house every so often. Patients who are somewhat ambulatory come out or are brought out to hear him, and family and friends welcome the break from bedside vigils.

In that setting, the quieter acoustic guitar, played solo without singing or other accompaniment, seems ideal. It's not the same as thanatology (harp), but the style of guitar I'm trying to learn seems conducive to these kinds of settings.

That said, my main purpose in learning solo fingerstyle is simply to learn solo fingerstyle. Reminds me of my master's degree in organizational leadership. People used to ask me all the time what I was going to do with my degree. I told them I was going to put it in a drawer! It's still there, last I checked....and that was 25+ years ago! The education in leadership was to satisfy my own curiosity and to address my love lf learning. Same with guitar. If I can someday use this skill to help others, so much the better.

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by EllaMom

Tony, you've said that you think piano is more conducive for volunteer "gigs"...and that might be right in most circumstances. But not all. I am a hospice volunteer, and most of my recent work has been at a nearby hospice house, where folks nearing end-of-life go for excellent and compassionate care in a setting that is less clinical than a hospital, but more supportive than can be found in many homes.

There is a piano in one room that is not central to the facility's layout. I've never heard anyone play it.

There is a central gathering area with soft seating, and a couple of other living room type areas. Patient rooms are situated in two wings, and at the hallway is more seating.

I know that my guitar teacher plays at this hospice house every so often. Patients who are somewhat ambulatory come out or are brought out to hear him, and family and friends welcome the break from bedside vigils.

In that setting, the quieter acoustic guitar, played solo without singing or other accompaniment, seems ideal. It's not the same as thanatology (harp), but the style of guitar I'm trying to learn seems conducive to these kinds of settings.

That said, my main purpose in learning solo fingerstyle is simply to learn solo fingerstyle. Reminds me of my master's degree in organizational leadership. People used to ask me all the time what I was going to do with my degree. I told them I was going to put it in a drawer! It's still there, last I checked....and that was 25+ years ago! The education in leadership was to satisfy my own curiosity and to address my love lf learning. Same with guitar. If I can someday use this skill to help others, so much the better.

Well, if there are such situations here for solo guitar and I encounter any of them, I will certainly be prepared, since that is what I have been doing for longer than I have the piano. So far, it seems that around here, the piano is the instrument for the places I have checked on. It will be several months before I am ready for that, but now I have a goal.

As for why I learned to play guitar, I did it because I wanted to, and I do continue to learn. Also, through much of my younger life, I was traveling and moving around a lot. The portability of the guitar is certainly appealing in that situation. I have also long found the guitar fretboard to be a fascinating puzzle. However, now that I am retired, I am thinking of ways I can use what I have learned in various areas of my life, in volunteer situations. This is, fortunately, quite common for people my age.

I have signed up through the local library to teach English as a second language and help these same folks with computer and reading skills. The person who headed up that area, retired recently, so that position needs to be filled before progress can be made on that front. My wife also signed up to fix books and sort them, and is also waiting for the new person to get hired so her application can get processed. This is supposed to happen next month.

By the way, your guitar teacher is one of the few solo fingerstyle players, like TE, that can really hold an audience's attention whether that audience is made up of other guitar players or not. I mentioned him in one of my posts in the arranging thread #2.

I also play the harp, but mine is too big to even fit in my car, so that is not a solution for me. Maybe if I got one of those smaller therapy harps made for that hospice environment...

Tony

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

What I have personally experienced is playing tunes as instrumental solos that people know (arranged pop tunes, for ragtime - the Entertainer, etc.). Nobody pays any attention at all. However, as soon as another person at the same situation, picks up a guitar and strums simple cowboy chords such as C, F, And G, but then SINGS, that person instantly has the audience. I have even had people ask "How come you don't sing?".

Absolutely, and this has always been one of my pet peeves. All you have to do is get out a guitar, and people will ask "what are you going to sing for us?" Probably would be better to be a sax player or something where it's obvious you aren't going to sing along with your instrument - at least not at the same time! What I was trying to suggest is that this comes from the pop music culture we have, where most people only encounter/like vocal music. If you play in an orchestra, or a jazz band, or solo guitar, that's so far out of most people's interest or experience that they barely know it exists. Try to find a radio program that plays instrumental music of any kind, let alone solo guitar! Even here on AGF, a pretty significant number of people will respond to comments like this with how boring they find guitar to be unless it's to accompany singing. I've just sort of started shrugging and saying "It's what I enjoy" and try not to let it bother me, which is all I was trying to suggest.