The Golden Age of Budget Guitars

[handers]

Originally Posted by Rickenbacker1

It's a cruel world for manufacturing . Most of the new offshore oil rigs being built are being built in Korea ..because the U S manufacturers have a hard time meeting specs.

Here is a quote from a friend of mine a Chinese business man . " The reason Chinese companies miss the mark is because they fail to listen to the American businessman . The American businessman says he wants this and the Chinese guy is already thinking how to change it . I guess they are listening .

And hopefully soon we won't need oil rigs.

There is no question that over the last 30 years the offerings at all levels of acoustic guitar have expanded exponentially in quality and in price. Getting a good guitar now is really a matter of knowing what you want and being able to suss the poorly made from the well-made.

hans

[Fatstrat]

Originally Posted by handers

And hopefully soon we won't need oil rigs.

There is no question that over the last 30 years the offerings at all levels of acoustic guitar have expanded exponentially in quality and in price. Getting a good guitar now is really a matter of knowing what you want and being able to suss the poorly made from the well-made.

hans

Very true. And remember, Asian guitars have come A LONG WAY from the factory to the American market. Shipped in several different modes. Ships, trucks etc. Through many climate changes. Stored in warehouses. Many if not all are not humidity/temp controlled. And it might be months of even a year before it gets sold.
This can have an effect on the guitar between the condition it was in when it left the factory and when you see it. And some survive it better than others.
I've seen guitars on the wall at GC that were unplayable. And you must figure that most if not all are at least in need of new set up. So buying online is a real crap shoot. Most vendors sell you the guitar as it arrived. Often w/o ever even opening the box. And you're likely the 1st person to see it since the person that packaged it in China. So if you get a bad one, you lost the gamble. Send it back and get another and HOPE for a good one. Or better yet, buy at GC or other STORE and make sure you get a good one. And even then get a new set up.

[lukybob2]

Originally Posted by Rmz76

The quality of the factory setup on Alvarez guitars seems very good and has been consistent on the past few models I've played. Their build quality isn't too shabby either. I was surprised how quickly the cedar top on my AG opened up... Moving up a notch in the $500-$1000 range Yamaha is now including hard cases with their L series. The L series also feature torrefied tops. Street price $600-$800.

Alvarez guitars are set up and re-strung in St. Louis after being imported. That's why they always seem to have a good set-up.

[lukybob2]

Originally Posted by mc1

well, there certainly are poorer countries than china, and how much labour, really, is required to build guitars?.

I agree. I have often wondered when guitars will be built in South America, closer to the rain forest, or in Africa, where tropical woods are abundant and labor is cheap.

[zombywoof]

By the late 1960s they could build a guitar in Japan for less than it took an American company to buy the wood to make one. The MIJ guitars drove first Valco/Kay and then Harmony clean out of business.

The numerous off-shore built, easy to find budget guitars out there are the modern day equivalent of the all-birch, ladder braced mail order instruments of the 1920s and 1930s. I, however, choose to stick with the old ones and keep a bunch of Schmidts, Supertones, Kay Krafts and such around. I just love the immediate and raw sound of the things and cannot get enough of the wide, thick necks. It will be interesting to note 50 years down the road though how many of these modern day offshore-made guitars will be selling for ten times what they originally cost.

Originally Posted by Fatstrat

I'm not sure all of them were hand built.

I am.

Lower-tier Alvarez guitars were (and are) built in China and Indonesia and not built "by hand". However, the Japanese instruments were from K Yairi (and still are). Really, to compare the Yairi instruments of the 1970s with "$300" instruments of today is inappropriate. Yairi instruments from that time are closer in build quality, materials and tone to a $2500 instrument from today.

I think we as guitarists have a tendency to incorrectly lump Asian-made guitars into one category. I think a lot of what you said is correct, however in addition to the laminated cheapos produced at the time there were also very serious, outstanding Luthiers that were making wonderful guitars - one of whom was Kazuo Yairi, may he rest in peace.

My Yairi from that era compares much more closely with my Gibson than my Epiphone. I think you would discover other Yairi owners would feel the same way.

[Nyghthawk]

In a way I have to agree with the OP. I have a $179 Yamaha FS700s that is a really good instrument for the price. And there are a LOT of decent low end guitars out there. However, I do not think they are as good as my Lyle Hummingbird (Matsumaku MIJ) was in 1974. The Lyle was just loud, heavy, and had a gorgeous finish on it. Just my 2c.

[zombywoof]

Originally Posted by Mark Stone

My Yairi from that era compares much more closely with my Gibson than my Epiphone. I think you would discover other Yairi owners would feel the same way.

I know folks who swear that the 1970s Ibanez clones out Gibson Gibsons from the same period.

[Fatstrat]

Originally Posted by Mark Stone

I am.

Lower-tier Alvarez guitars were (and are) built in China and Indonesia and not built "by hand". However, the Japanese instruments were from K Yairi (and still are). Really, to compare the Yairi instruments of the 1970s with "$300" instruments of today is inappropriate. Yairi instruments from that time are closer in build quality, materials and tone to a $2500 instrument from today.

I think we as guitarists have a tendency to incorrectly lump Asian-made guitars into one category. I think a lot of what you said is correct, however in addition to the laminated cheapos produced at the time there were also very serious, outstanding Luthiers that were making wonderful guitars - one of whom was Kazuo Yairi, may he rest in peace.

My Yairi from that era compares much more closely with my Gibson than my Epiphone. I think you would discover other Yairi owners would feel the same way.

So ALL Japanese built Alvarez guitars were Yari's? I had thought that Yari models were marked YARI specifically. I recall there being "Alvarez Yari's, and just MIJ Alvarez marked guitars. I do know that a youngster I wanted a guitar that I wanted guitasrs that sounded as close as I could get to Neil Young's Martin's. And one of the ones I both liked and could afford was Alvarez.

[mc1]

"it's phenomenal for the price!"

"not uber-phenomenal, or $50k phenomenal, like, you know, a somogyi, or something, but $300 phenomenal."

[SFCRetired]

Personally I think Captaincranky has some valid points. Whether the guitars were actually bad instruments is really not the issue, but they were perceived to be bad instruments. And some were, and some were not. But we were all conditioned to believe they were junk. Just like when they moved to Korea, everyone then said buy a MIA or MIJ guitar. Then it was buy one from USA-Japan-or Korea, not a Taiwan made. Rinse repeat, until we are now in China.

I have no idea of the differences of MIA or MIC guitars, maybe a lot, maybe not all that much. This I do know. The cost of labor in the US and Japan etc, has been the reason production has moved. So one has to decide for themselves if buying a MIA versus MIC is worth the cost difference. My gut tells me the MIA guitars is better by a factor of maybe .5 to 1. Are they really 10 times better? I don't think they are unless you're making albums and selling them.

One thing I have noticed is the professionals who endorse a guitar are NOT playing the same guitars we typically buy of any brand, so an endorsement means nothing to me. And if you buy that endorsed one, it's cost is out of reach for most of us.

But yes, there are some great low cost guitars out there, but it's the labor costs that drive those bargains. Not so much the quality of the instrument. Ask yourself this. If Martin or Gibson or Fender could sell their MIA guitars for the same price as those MIC, would they? The answer is NO.

[SFCRetired]

Originally Posted by Fatstrat

So ALL Japanese built Alvarez guitars were Yari's? I had thought that Yari models were marked YARI specifically. I recall there being "Alvarez Yari's, and just MIJ Alvarez marked guitars. I do know that a youngster I wanted a guitar that I wanted guitasrs that sounded as close as I could get to Neil Young's Martin's. And one of the ones I both liked and could afford was Alvarez.

I believe the Alvarez today is made in Chine. The Yari is made in Japan. In the past all of them were made in Japan, so you will find older Alvarez's MIJ. And yes they are marked Yari. Alvarez really is a bargain for what you get. As is Washburn.

[Fatstrat]

This is what I'm talking about. 1970's Alvarez. Inlaid word "Alvarez" on headstock. Made in Japan on soundhole sticker. No mention of Yari.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-1970...3D111054444222

[GangstaPat]

Originally Posted by mc1

"it's phenomenal for the price!"

"not uber-phenomenal, or $50k phenomenal, like, you know, a somogyi, or something, but $300 phenomenal."

Sorry. I missed most of the conversation flying home yesterday.

This statement pretty much sums up how I feel. Living in Dallas Mr. Somogyi's guitars are one of a very few that I have never gotten my hands on but I feel that I have been fortunate enough to play both some of the best and some of the worst acoustic guitars out there, including some with phenomenal price tags. I notice differences but in this players opinion they are nowhere near as vast as the differences in price. At the same time I am always finding inexpensive guitars that "to me" sound and feel better than instruments that cost many times (5 to 10 times) more. I will stick by my original statement.

To me that is phenomenal.

[leatherguy]

Originally Posted by bitraker

I had the local GC acoustic room to myself this morning - I was completely blown away by the consistent quality of low-end guitars - there are some amazing deals for under $300.00 - I played an Alvarez for $190.00 that was equal or better in tone and build quality than many in the high-end room.

This truly is the Golden Age of budget guitars.

Interesting you bring this up....I just bought me a new Yamaha from a local mom n pop shop and the owner was telling me the exact same thing.
He's been the owner of this shop since the early 70's....and has always been a Martin dealer, but tells me there have never been better sounding low-end guitars like there are now.
He also referred to today being the "Golden Age" for guitars.