Tips on recording rhythm guitar (mic placement etc)

[tdrake]

Ok, I can get delicate and finger picked tracks down that I'm quite happy with, but capturing pleasing rhythm tracks escape me: once the playing builds in dynamic the tracks become boomy and/or overly crips/bright.

I know I'm not going to get "studio quality" tracks with my current gear, but I'm really not interested in trying to buy my way out of this problem right now; we're trying to put together a "decent" demo-quality disc to pass off or post to help us get gigs, and hopefully we can get into a studio later this year.

So, really, I'm looking for tips on mic placement and perhaps eq-ing etc. All tracks will be with vocals and eventually sit in with a small band (stand up bass, maybe drums, accompanying fiddle or mando or guitar).

Whenever possible I really prefer to record my vocals and guitar at the same time, but if that's a fool's game for this issue, I can dump that approach.

Mics I own: Rode NT1a, MXL 603, cheap, brutally brittle LDC Chinese knock off , SM57, Sennheiser e835.

These run thru my Yammy board --> Lexicon Omega --> Reaper.

Guitar is a Larrivee OM-09 (rosewood) that tends toward the bright (yes, that's part of the problem right there; I'm a one acoustic kind of guy and am not going to buy a D-28 any time soon ).

Any advice, or am I simply swimming up river against a tide of the wrong gear?

[Fran Guidry]

Hard to say without samples and details on the current approach, but perhaps you're trying for too hot a recording, and/or miking too close? It's pretty tricky tracking for mixing - think about how far back in the mix the rhythm guitar will be, give yourself a little more space.

Fran

[Mtn Man]

That was my first thought too. I'm not a recording expert, but in a live situation you usually want the rhythm underneath, or back in the mix. You definitely don't want it competing with the soloist.

[Rodger]

A few thoughts:

If you're recording a song with a lot of dynamics (soft playing that builds and subsides - meaning your picking or strumming attack varies a lot), my first thought was that a compressor would help. If set properly, the comp would lessen the volume of the hardest attack and boost the softer playing. This would result in the volume throughout the song being closer together.

Mic placement: The NT1A is an OK mic. Don't place it directly in front of the soundhole. This definitely will result in boominess. Try placing the NT1 about the 14th fret with it angled towards the neck/body joint. If you're recording in stereo, then place the 603 pointing directly at the lower bout of the guitar. You can also try reversing the mic's placement. Move the mics slowly around while listening through headphones until each hits the sweet spot (the tone you're looking for). Ideally, you can record the guitar part without using EQ.

I would record the vocals separately - that way you can tweak the guitar separately from the vocals and balance the volume of each.

Hope this helps. Good luck.

[Bob Womack]

Your tools are ok so maybe you can use technique to beat your problems.

Yup, record the guitar separately. Yup, use the NT1A facing the neck at the neck/body joint to start, about ten inches out. In order to prevent competition with the voice, roll off the bass and notch out a little low mids to carve out a space. This will help with the balance as well, helping prevent the natural tendency to want to add the trebles. Voile'! The typical rhythm sound. Basically chicka-chicka with some tonal clarity as well. If you want a stereo rhythm sound, put the bright mic on the lower bout where things are round and mushy.

If you are getting major timbre changes between sections there is probably a playing technique problem showing. You might be best to moderate your playing, but if your software allows, you can automate the high-end EQ and pull it back when the sound gets crashy.

Now, the dynamics thing is best solved by using your level automation to level up the track rather than throwing on a pile of compression, IMHO.

Have fun!

Bob

[tdrake]

I put y'all's advice into practice last night with excellent results. Basically, I guess, I needed to get the mics away from the sound-hole, and, with Bob's advice in mind, dial back my own attack to smooth things out; I am notoriously right-hand-ham-fisted and constantly need to monitor that.

Also, although I was reasonably happy with the tracks without any eq-ing, "switching on" a low-cut filter (in Reaper) for the NT1A worked miracles. Conversely, I dug out my old, crappy Art tube pre-amp to "warm up" (deaden?) the MXL 603.

And, finally, I think I've finally come around to the need to record guitar and vocals separately; I pulled up the files on another song I recorded a few days ago and it's really just a perfect, perfect take -- mics set up just right, my playing spot on without a single mistake -- with one exception: a very small, uh, well, burp (!) smack dab in the middle. ...spent about an hour trying to isolate and eliminate it (it's so subtle!), but no go: all three mics picked it up and the tracks are ruined. ...and it's a very mellow, just guitar and voice song, so it can't otherwise be buried.

No biggee, of course, but it certainly drove home that it's time to start recording elements entirely separately.

Thanks again!

[Azi]

Superb info here.

[Ty Ford]

and maybe you just have crappy speakers!

Unless they are telling you the truth, you're only guessing.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[tdrake]

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

and maybe you just have crappy speakers!

Unless they are telling you the truth, you're only guessing.

Regards,

Ty Ford

I probably have the worst of both worlds: relatively crappy monitors, but not so bad that they aren't telling me the truth, which is that my recordings are crappy

I do have decent headphones (Sony MDR-7506), though, and while they definitely sound better than the speakers, they also confirm the harshness.

HOWEVER, since first putting up this post awhile back, I've experimented ALOT and have made (and not made) some headway:

1) moving the mics back helped quite a bit

2) after hours of attempts, using and not using scratch tracks, I've had mixed, and generally really crappy, outcomes with recording the guitar and vox separately; doing so definitely makes it easier to catch a better guitar tone (yes!), but the tracks really, really lack the essential "artistic" or "organic" (dunno the right, non goofy word) feeling I'm after. The playing is stale. No doubt better players can get around that problem, but I'm one of those guys who plays a song differently each time I play, and I'm as interested in catching that magic five minutes as I am catching the perfect tone. So, basically, I know, I'm working at cross purposes here, between being an artsy-fartsy songwriter and a hack recording engineer (to use the term verrrry broadly!).


3) Anyway, I also recently purchased an Oktava MC 012 and that helped a lot...BUT it arrived only recently and I'm about to become very busy. I was able to record a half dozen tracks with it, mix them down to put 'em on the iPod and compare them to the stuff with other mics...definite improvement (smoother).

The better mic, however, may have identified the true root of the evil, and that's that I probably am using the wrong guitar for the rhythm work; the OM Larrivee is simply quite bright when strummed hard. This is definitely not the first time I've figured this out, but the "right" rhythm guitar is also definitely *not* in the works right now, or even in the near future.

Simple solution there is to borrow something darker from a friend, so I'm curious to try that.

[Ty Ford]

or, use EQ effectively to put the brighter track in its place.

I do that all the time, in both directions. Muted to bright or the opposite.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Fran Guidry]

Some other avenues to consider besides borrowing a different guitar - try a folded cardboard pick. It will be dead after one tune, but the price is right. Try moving your picking hand away from the bridge. Strum less "deep" into the strings. And use EQ to shape your tone in post.

You can get amazing separation between guitar and vocal with figure 8 mics. A pair of CAD M179s are an inexpensive way to get there, but a low end ribbon would also give you figure 8 and would roll off the highs as well. With greater separation between the sources, you can do more to the tracks in post.

I've been experimenting lately with miniature omni mics taped to the top of the guitar. The omni pattern eliminates proximity, the extremely close placement reduces the vocal bleed remarkably.

Fran

[Bob Womack]

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry

I've been experimenting lately with miniature omni mics taped to the top of the guitar. The omni pattern eliminates proximity, the extremely close placement reduces the vocal bleed remarkably.
Fran

If you are talking about lapel mics, they are also great for hi-hats.

Bob