Difficulties learning the right Beat or Rythm

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by mattbn73

The difference between a syncopated 3/4 and 6/8 is a subtle thing, but there's a difference. Probably much to do with what you leave out etc. Anyway, ramblings:

https://youtu.be/TIROCIGF1Kw

This is so kind of you! That was really good. I've downloaded to watch a few more times. You gave me a lot of good ideas and you really did show the difference very clearly. Thank you!

[1neeto]

Get a metronome, there's countless phone metronome apps, I can't think of a better tool to develop your rhythm skills.

Set the metronome to a comfortable tempo, and start to swing your strumming arm to it without hitting any strings. You should hit the click at every downstroke. Now that you can confidently swing that strumming arm to the beat, it's now time to hit strings. You can either do this with open strings, or just hold a chord shape, don't worry about chord transitions just yet. Start strumming downstrokes only, make sure you hit them on the click. If you feel comfortable enough, you can start transitioning chords, don't worry about fumbling a chord or two, the main thing here is to develop that rhythm timing, keep that strumming hand going no matter what.

Now let's add some up strokes. Start again with the down strums to the click, and then add some up strums to the mix. When you hit up strums, you don't have to hit all strings, and remember to keep that strumming arm going. Start experimenting with down and up strums, and strumming patterns will develop. If you get good enough, you'll be able to figure out strumming patterns by just listening to a song.

[TJE"]

Originally Posted by 1neeto

Get a metronome, there's countless phone metronome apps, I can't think of a better tool to develop your rhythm skills.
.

thank you. Playing along the metronome does seem to help my confidence with rhyhtmic skills. The issue with listening and trying to copy songs is that at this stage there for me is too much happening in the song for me to be able to adequately identify and replicate it's beat. But I will have to do it at some stage.

[s0cks]

I feel rhythm is often glossed over too easily. The amount of times I've watched a tutorial video where the guitarist never mentions the rhythm is depressing.

Perhaps that's why so many fail to understand why their music sounds amateurish even though they are playing the right notes. Just yesterday I was learning a fingerstyle piece from YouTube and the bridge was totally wrong, it was actually missing beats (it was in time but some bars were cut short). You simply cannot make those mistakes if you count the beat as you play.

It's so much easier to figure out and play a song once you have the rhythm down. I recommend OP use the tools at his disposal. Metronome, counting out loud, tapping your foot, etc... But don't be afraid to put the guitar down and clap out the rhythm. I do this all the time.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

I suspect if you were just playing it without vocals and other instruments, 123, 123 would work ok, wouldn't it?

Yes.

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

Isn't it the phrasing that makes a piece 3/4, rather than 6/8?

Kind of. The ssential difference between 3/4 and 6/8 is that 6/8 is two beats in the bar, counted "1-&-a-2-&-a". A very different feel from 3/4! (A jig rather than a waltz.)

But in 3/4 it can be common to accent the "and of 2", i.e., the 4th 8th note in the bar, where the 2nd beat in 6/8 would be. This can imply a 6/8 cross-rhythm. John Lennon does this in "Norwegian Wood" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl2xQAeCvOc He counts it in as "1-2-3-1-2-3", and the overall feel is of 6/8, with an offbeat snare accent on the second "1" of each 1-2-3 pair. That's really what makes it 6/8 and not 3/4 - although you could argue it's 6/4.
But in the intro you hear him accenting upstrokes to create a common cross-rhythm: "1-2-& - - -&". Beat 3 is underplayed, even missed entirely, creating a 6/8 cross-rhythm within the 3/4 (or a 6/16 within each 3/8, if you regard the whole thing as 6/8).

3/4
|1 . 2 . 3 .|1 . 2 . 3 .| Lennon's count
|>   > >   >|>   > >   >| Lennon's accents
|d   d u   u|d   d u   u|

alternative counts:
6/4
|1 . 2 . 3 .|4 . 5 . 6 .| 
6/8
|1   &   a  |2   &   a  |

The cross-rhythm that occurs in Neil Diamond's "Mr Bojangles" (on the snare drum from 0:43) is different, accenting the "and of 1" and the 3.

3/4
|1 . 2 . 3 .|1 . 2 . 3 .| 
|  >     >  |  >     >  |

So that's like an offset 6/8 rhythm! hits every three 8th notes, two per bar, but starting on the and of 1.

In Bojangles, moreover, the 8ths are swung, so it's a kind of jazz 3/4 (as mattbn73 demonstrates in his video).
It seems to me that - while 3/4 is rare anyway in pop/rock - swing 3/4 is surprisingly more common than straight 3/4. Billy Joel's "Piano Man" is very similar to "Mr Bojangles" in this respect, as is an older track like "Go Now" (Moody Blues). A pop example of straight 3/4 is the Beatles' "She's Leaving Home".

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

In fact, I see sheet music for Bojangles in both 3/4 and 6/8.

If written in the latter, it would have be because they've grouped the 3/4 bars into pairs, and called the quarter notes 8ths. IOW, 3/4+3/4 = 6/4, halved to 6/8. (IOW, much like the feel of Norwegian Wood.)
That makes for a much slower feel - placing the main accent on the "1" of each 3/4.

It's correct if you feel it that way (which is possible), but I'd argue for 3/4 because the chords mostly change every 3 beats - plus there is that rhythm involving the "ands" between the beats, which is simpler to notate in 3/4 than involving 16ths in 6/8. (Having found an example in 6/8, that's obvious: the notation looks much fussier and is harder to follow.)

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

As far as beginner guitarists, I wonder if a student who is having trouble, but who is trying to use a pick, would do better with fingers. Personally, my rhythm is far more intricate with fingers.

In fingerstyle, the thumb essentially replaces the downstrokes, and the fingers the upstrokes. IMO fingerstyle could make this rhythm more precise (and potentially intricate), while strumming with pick gives a looser feel. Suits this song better (as mattbn73 demonstrates).
My feeling is a beginner should use a pick, unless they're keen on developing a fingerstyle technique in general.