Difficulties learning the right Beat or Rythm

[zhunter]

Listening and counting are all important pieces of the puzzle.

I'll add a method to focus listening. If you adhere to the James Brown philosophy, everything is a drum. Every instrument is responsible for the beat. It is not unusual for me to steal rhythm feels directly from the drummer. The classic Motown backbeat rhythm guitar is a direct snare beat. Grab that snare and lock on. High hats and bass drums are the other places to look for the beats you want to play on guitar. It can be especially helpful to think of guitar as a high hat when the accompaniment is sparse.

So listen to drummers, listen to bass players, of course listen to guitar players. Listen to anyone that is in a working rhythm section. This may seem advanced and a little overwhelming but no better time to start.

One last thing. I started out playing wanting to be heard, step out of the mix. Over the years I learned to focus on not being heard, get in the mix. I have a saying "time is texture". Some of the best music sounds full and big but not busy. It has a big fat texture. When everyone cooperates to the max on time, individual instruments become less prominent and the overall sound blend becomes the focus. For example, think of playing rhythm so your guitar almost disappears into the snare. It will still be there, the rhythm will be solid and supported by a layer of harmonic sound that seems to be part of the music. Because it is.

Become a drummer on guitar.

hunter

[Pine]

Originally Posted by TJE"

........
Is there some kind of trick to getting the beat or rythm right in guitar playing or is this a gift that not all of us have? ..............

Hi JTE,
I’m a late stage beginner myself, so I still struggle a bit with finding a good way to play rhythms as a solo player. Oftentimes, the music you are trying to play was recorded by a band with a drummer, bass player, and other guitars. Each of those percussive instruments contributes to the rhythmic feel of the music.

Another difficulty a beginner has is how to translate the “beat” or rhythm you hear in the recording to a rhythm you can play on the guitar. This is where I struggled the most. The advice I got (just listen to) (or feel) the music) was well intentioned advice, but not too helpful. I could hear and feel the rhythm, but couldn’t make that come out of my guitar.

What I found the most helpful was contained in the Justinguitar.com beginner’s course. Learning to tap my feet to the beat and count rhythms was very helpful. Justin’s free lessons that discuss rhythm and what he call RUST (Really Useful Strumming) patterns was the most helpful. I wasn’t able to create the rhythms I heard on the guitar until I learned about a dozen common ¼ and 1/8th note strumming patterns.

Now that I know how those rhythms are created on the guitar, I have a much easier time with listening and recognizing the rhythm, as well as being able to play what I heard.

Good luck. It does get easier with experience!

YMWACV (Your Mileage Will Almost Certainly Vary)

[TJE"]

"Another difficulty a beginner has is how to translate the “beat” or rhythm you hear in the recording to a rhythm you can play on the guitar. This is where I struggled the most. The advice I got (just listen to) (or feel) the music) was well intentioned advice, but not too helpful. I could hear and feel the rhythm, but couldn’t make that come out of my guitar."

This is exactly the problem I've got. For instance I can recognize a single and very strong acoustic guitar beat throughout Neil Diamond's version of 'Mr Bojangles', but I can't make it come out of my guitar after an hour of practising. Maybe giving up too soon.

[zhunter]

Originally Posted by TJE"

"Another difficulty a beginner has is how to translate the “beat” or rhythm you hear in the recording to a rhythm you can play on the guitar. This is where I struggled the most. The advice I got (just listen to) (or feel) the music) was well intentioned advice, but not too helpful. I could hear and feel the rhythm, but couldn’t make that come out of my guitar."

This is exactly the problem I've got. For instance I can recognize a single and very strong acoustic guitar beat throughout Neil Diamond's version of 'Mr Bojangles', but I can't make it come out of my guitar after an hour of practising. Maybe giving up too soon.

You have to realize that anyone playing on a Neil Diamond record is very likely to be a seasoned studio pro. While guitar players often give short shrift to rhythm guitar, there have always been studio players sought out for their rhythm skills. And these guys/gals are not beginners. Playing consistent steady rhythm eludes many. BTW, holding yourself up to the pros is not wrong. It is a great standard, but sometimes frustrating. How we manage frustration is a big part of how we manage guitar learning.

How many hours do you have in on practicing rhythm? Less than 1000?

While I recommend transitioning out of the approach as quickly as you can, it may help to mute the strings with your left hand or with a makeshift mute and focus entirely on the rhythm strum. Forget harmony. Just be a time keeper.

hunter

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by TJE"

I don't know if anyone can help with this but..

I am learning to play and have more or less mastered the major chords and a few minor ones. I can also do reasonably fast chord changes.

But I am finding immense difficulty in getting the right/beat or rythm to even very simple songs like 'swing low' and 'what shall we do with the drunken sailor', I follow the guide books instruction of four beats to the bar and it does not sound right, or I sing the words in my head but can't seem to get the interval between the strums to sound right. To make matters worse I've got a friend who's got even less experience than me, and she can off the cuff come up with her own great sounding quite complex single chord rythms.

Is there some kind of trick to getting the beat or rythm right in guitar playing or is this a gift that not all of us have?

I guess it might help if I could learn to spell 'rythm'

Ha! "rhythm".

Those two songs are very different in feel. Drunken Sailor is normally in 2/4 (two beats per bar), or a very fast 4/4. Swing Low is slower and easier to approach, although it's usually played with a swing feel, which affects the upstrokes.
Here's how the rhythm of the words fits the beats:

|1     2    3    4    |1    2    3    4    |
|Swing low,     sweet |cha----ri-o-ot
.
|1      2      3     4   |1    2    3    4    |
|Coming for to carry me  |home

You'd play a downstroke on every beat. Notice some beats fall between words, or even between syllables (in "chariot"), and some syllables fall between beats.
The beats obviously have to be regular - imagine clapping along or tapping your foot - and the melody fits in between.

Don't worry about upstrokes at all to begin with. Just downstrokes on the 1-2-3-4, and try accenting the 2 and 4, to give it a groove.

Drunken Sailor is (ideally) much faster:

|1     2       3   4        |1    2   3   4   |       
|What shall we do  with the |drun-ken sai-lor |
.
|1   2  3  4   |1   2   3    4  |
|ear-ly in the |mor-----ning    |

Again, it would ideally be a downstroke on 1-2-3-4 all the way, although the natural accents are on 1 and 3. (When the song is written in 2/4, there are just 2 beats in the bar, on "what"-"do", but still 4 downstrokes.) You could play it slow to practice, but it's not really an ideal tune to work on, IMO - except maybe to practice chord changing, which you could do by just playing a chord on each beat 1 alone.

[TJE"]

Originally Posted by zhunter

How we manage frustration is a big part of how we manage guitar learning.


hunter

Just carry on? No matter what?

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by TJE"

For instance I can recognize a single and very strong acoustic guitar beat throughout Neil Diamond's version of 'Mr Bojangles', but I can't make it come out of my guitar after an hour of practising. Maybe giving up too soon.

Yes. An hour is nothing!
Mr Bojangles is in 3/4, or waltz time. That's a count of 1-2-3, accent on the "1", and (in this case) a change of chord mostly every bar.
In the Neil Diamond version, it's a fairly complicated guitar part, with upstrokes and tricky accents here and there. Don't try and copy that! Just strum downstrokes on the beats- in fact you should begin just with a downstroke on each beat 1 (whether the chord is changing or not).

Obviously you need to understand how to count the rhythm:

  |1     2     3      |1      2     3     |1       2      3     |1   2   3   | 
I knew a man   Bo-jang---les and   he danced   for you          |

The vocal is syncopated, which is another thing that makes it tricky (especially if you sing and play at the same time). The syllables "jang-" and "danced" are sung before the beat: between beat 3 and beat 1, and held across beat 1. You have to ignore that off-beat rhythm while strumming, and just keep the beat.

[TJE"]

This is very helpful, hopefully not just for me but for other beginners as well

[TBman]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Yes. An hour is nothing!
Mr Bojangles is in 3/4, or waltz time. That's a count of 1-2-3, accent on the "1", and (in this case) a change of chord mostly every bar.
In the Neil Diamond version, it's a fairly complicated guitar part, with upstrokes and tricky accents here and there. Don't try and copy that! Just strum downstrokes on the beats- in fact you should begin just with a downstroke on each beat 1 (whether the chord is changing or not).

Obviously you need to understand how to count the rhythm:

  |1     2     3      |1      2     3     |1       2      3     |1   2   3   | 
I knew a man   Bo-jang---les and   he danced   for you          |

The vocal is syncopated, which is another thing that makes it tricky (especially if you sing and play at the same time). The syllables "jang-" and "danced" are sung before the beat: between beat 3 and beat 1, and held across beat 1. You have to ignore that off-beat rhythm while strumming, and just keep the beat.

Excellent example.

What I do when I can't "get it" is to break it down to its simplest form (finally algebra has come in handy after a half century, lol), which for me is always the bass line (finger style). So forget all the extra strumming at first, just do the main beat 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 (if in 4/4) and learn the outline of the song, then dig deeper as it gets into your head.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by TJE"

"Another difficulty a beginner has is how to translate the “beat” or rhythm you hear in the recording to a rhythm you can play on the guitar. This is where I struggled the most. The advice I got (just listen to) (or feel) the music) was well intentioned advice, but not too helpful. I could hear and feel the rhythm, but couldn’t make that come out of my guitar."

This is exactly the problem I've got. For instance I can recognize a single and very strong acoustic guitar beat throughout Neil Diamond's version of 'Mr Bojangles', but I can't make it come out of my guitar after an hour of practising. Maybe giving up too soon.

Jerry Jeff Walker keeps his part really simple.

[TJE"]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

Jerry Jeff Walker keeps his part really simple.

Ok this breaks it down more easily.

But I want to play the whole tune on an acoustic(including the complicated bit that the other guy in this video does with the electric), in fact just like or similar to the way what I assume to be the solo guitarist on the Neil Diamond version does, but maybe its a question of learning in layers ie rhythm then melody etc.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by TJE"

Ok this breaks it down more easily.

But I want to play the whole tune on an acoustic(including the complicated bit that the other guy in this video does with the electric), in fact just like or similar to the way what I assume to be the solo guitarist on the Neil Diamond version does, but maybe its a question of learning in layers ie rhythm then melody etc.

I'm sure there's a way for someone to do that, but at least you know that the songwriter himself used 2 guitars, a bass, and drums to get this sound, so it's not like you would be expected to do it so very easily.

[LSemmens]

Originally Posted by TJE"

Is this right? I feel like I should be paying for this.

You'd be broke real, quick! Just contribute when you can and have fun. I've been playing for over 40 years, and I still can't keep beat.

[Looburst]

Yep, what Amy said is the best I know of learning how to keep time. A gift for rhythm? Now that's not something that can be taught, you either have it or you don't.

[FwL]

To find the beat try clapping your hands instead of playing your guitar. If you can't clap in a steady rhythm and sing the melody, you'll never be able to strum a steady rhythm while changing chords and trying to sing.