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  #61  
Old 05-25-2017, 04:56 PM
s0cks s0cks is offline
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I messed around with triads last night again. They are cool and a lot of fun. I'm going to incorporate them back into my practice regime, but I'm including a bass note on top to fill the sound out (whether it's root, 3rd, or 5th). I plan to do this to the point I can improvise them on the fly, starting with the top 3 strings, then the 2nd,3rd, and 4th strings, then maybe the 3rd, 4th, and 5th. Then I'll look into 7ths, suspended chords, etc... I think it would be a great way to get more familiar with the neck.

I also think Wyllys hit the nail on the head when he talked about splitting triads across strings. This is more along the lines of how I think. He's my root, now do I want a 3rd in the same octave, or an octave higher? Do I want a fifth in the same octave, or perhaps an octave lower?

That said, learning them as a 3 string shape is still useful, and helps build fretboard visualization.

I also think learning other people's songs is extremely valuable. While my end goal is to be able to improvise what I hear in my head (phew, that's gonna take some time), you can't really do that without a decent volume of musical knowledge and ideas to back you up. Learning other songs introduces you to new ideas such as unusual chord voicings, rhythmic ideas, unusual chord progressions, phrasing, etc... What we listen to and play has a big influence on our own style.
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  #62  
Old 05-26-2017, 12:24 PM
mattbn73 mattbn73 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
Further thought regarding the nature of music, the learning, playing and teaching thereof:

The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

This is why physicists continue to find ever smaller particles, components or phenomena ad infinitum...and why mathematicians are prone to slip into madness and dementia.

Tra-la-la...
Okay, but this assumption - . that the only thing being discussed here is a set of arbitrary exercises disconnected from real music - isn't what I'm talking about at all. My entire process for learning triads was through real music.

I used tunes to learn triads , and now, the triads greatly help in learning tunes as well. In the last year I have read through hundreds of tunes, chord melody style, from fake books and other charts at church, and that wasn't something I could have done as well before this. Honestly it's the most enjoyable aspect of playing for me and I don't categorize it as "exercise material " at all.

Beyond all of that, it's very practical in terms of the kinds of gigs you often get as a solo guitarist. Last time I got my guitar set up, The guy handed it to me to check out. I picked it up and started playing some solo guitar , chord melody type stuff . The guy chuckled and said, "you never make any money above the third fret". Funny but true, if you consider the amount of time that the average guitarist puts into each solo piece.

If you have the occasion to play a wedding or funeral, usually, it's a one-off, and maybe you never play that particular music again. At a certain level you kind of have to ask yourself how much practice time is really worth developing tunes for a one-time gig like that.

Being able to put together an arrangement from a lead sheet pretty quickly, and then developing it as I see fit, feels -to me - a lot more like what a pianist does for the same gig - maybe not necessarily spending hours learning a solo piece or ONLY playing pieces which you've previously spent HOURS on.
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  #63  
Old 05-26-2017, 01:39 PM
Wyllys Wyllys is offline
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Originally Posted by mattbn73 View Post
Okay, but this assumption - . that the only thing being discussed here is a set of arbitrary exercises disconnected from real music - isn't what I'm talking about at all. My entire process for learning triads was through real music.

I used tunes to learn triads , and now, the triads greatly help in learning tunes as well. In the last year I have read through hundreds of tunes, chord melody style, from fake books and other charts at church, and that wasn't something I could have done as well before this. Honestly it's the most enjoyable aspect of playing for me and I don't categorize it as "exercise material " at all.

Beyond all of that, it's very practical in terms of the kinds of gigs you often get as a solo guitarist. Last time I got my guitar set up, The guy handed it to me to check out. I picked it up and started playing some solo guitar , chord melody type stuff . The guy chuckled and said, "you never make any money above the third fret". Funny but true, if you consider the amount of time that the average guitarist puts into each solo piece.

If you have the occasion to play a wedding or funeral, usually, it's a one-off, and maybe you never play that particular music again. At a certain level you kind of have to ask yourself how much practice time is really worth developing tunes for a one-time gig like that.

Being able to put together an arrangement from a lead sheet pretty quickly, and then developing it as I see fit, feels -to me - a lot more like what a pianist does for the same gig - maybe not necessarily spending hours learning a solo piece or ONLY playing pieces which you've previously spent HOURS on.
I think you're taking my philosophical statements as some kind of criticism...which they are not. I have nothing against theory, study and practice, but I try to maintain perspective on the big picture as "loyal opposition" attempting to avoid "paralysis through analysis".

Two statements made to me by music teachers from my youth:

Music is a picture painted on a background of silence.

Music is more than playing all the right notes in the right order.

Or as Robert Pete Williams said in reply to a question about his music:

"C natural is the key. You just gotta see natural."

https://youtu.be/UH41odNr-Aw
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  #64  
Old 05-26-2017, 05:58 PM
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In the spirit of your title "Intro to triads", I was hoping you could tell me if I have this right. I'm just starting fingerstyle with a classical teacher. He recommended learning triads.

I've never posted a document before, so if it's huge or something, please go easy on me.
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File Type: jpg G I IV V Inversions.jpg (49.9 KB, 40 views)
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  #65  
Old 05-27-2017, 11:21 AM
mattbn73 mattbn73 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pine View Post
In the spirit of your title "Intro to triads", I was hoping you could tell me if I have this right. I'm just starting fingerstyle with a classical teacher. He recommended learning triads.

I've never posted a document before, so if it's huge or something, please go easy on me.
Looks good to me. You're laying out G,C and D minor chords alongside the major - kind of a parallel relationship. That parallel relationship is really good for seeing how major and minor are different from each other.

Additionally, check out the other minor chords, relative to your major . So, for the G major : A minor, B minor, E minor. There's also an F# diminished triad on the 7th scale degree, rounding out the group of seven chords - one per scale degree. The dim is not used as much, in its own right, except for occasional diminished chords etc., but is incredibly useful in voicing 7th chords later.
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  #66  
Old 05-27-2017, 12:40 PM
Pine Pine is offline
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Thanks for looking it over Matt. I wasn't sure I understood correctly how the chords were formed. Open chords generally have the root as the lowest string played. All the inversions I learned were / chords.

It looks like I have my work cut out for me learning the fretboard above first position.
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  #67  
Old 05-27-2017, 06:19 PM
mattbn73 mattbn73 is offline
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This is from something I was doing a few months ago. Just a reference page, not in order. Possibly mistakes. Let me know. But this is kind of the way I look at using triads melodically.

All of the "G" chords are simply G with whatever melody note on top. So, G chord with A in the melody, I'd be playing the Gadd9 shape.

Note: usually I wouldn't give this to someone all at once. Generally give them just specific voicings for playing a simple tune or whatever. http://chordsologuitar.com/wp-conten...ith-Triads.pdf

Last edited by mattbn73; 05-27-2017 at 06:35 PM.
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  #68  
Old 05-28-2017, 10:44 AM
Pine Pine is offline
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These are great charts. Thanks for posting them Matt. I've not learned enough theory to understand chord construction beyond the very basics, but it's impressive to see what can be done in one key on just 3 strings.

Your article on your website, "Chord Solos, Chord Melody and Solo Guitar" was very helpful to begin understanding how the chords relate to melody when playing. I asked my teacher several times, but didn't get an answer I understood. With the help of your article, I understand much better why he wants me learning triads now, for use after we finish the Aaron Shearer book.

You must use the "Neck Diagrams" software to create your charts. I bought it when the Aaron Shearer book I'm using started teaching the Major Scale. It’s a very flexible tool. And so easy to make charts for both right and left handed players.
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  #69  
Old 05-28-2017, 12:09 PM
mattbn73 mattbn73 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pine View Post
These are great charts. Thanks for posting them Matt. I've not learned enough theory to understand chord construction beyond the very basics, but it's impressive to see what can be done in one key on just 3 strings.

Your article on your website, "Chord Solos, Chord Melody and Solo Guitar" was very helpful to begin understanding how the chords relate to melody when playing. I asked my teacher several times, but didn't get an answer I understood. With the help of your article, I understand much better why he wants me learning triads now, for use after we finish the Aaron Shearer book.

You must use the "Neck Diagrams" software to create your charts. I bought it when the Aaron Shearer book I'm using started teaching the Major Scale. It’s a very flexible tool. And so easy to make charts for both right and left handed players.
Very glad it makes sense, pine. Personally, I was never taught anything like this either, and I haven't really ever seen anything like a "method" for playing this way. That's why I'm particularly interested in it as a concept... and as a conversation...

Yeah. Neck diagrams works really well and also integrates with other software pretty well.
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  #70  
Old 05-28-2017, 12:31 PM
SunnyDee SunnyDee is offline
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Originally Posted by mattbn73 View Post
Very glad it makes sense, pine. Personally, I was never taught anything like this either, and I haven't really ever seen anything like a "method" for playing this way. That's why I'm particularly interested in it as a concept... and as a conversation...
From my perspective as an adult learner, I think that charts that show all the shapes for different chords as if each one is somehow fundamentally different and they all need to be memorized are really overwhelming.

For me, it was far more accessible to realize that with just three strings, there are only three possibilities for each major shape and three possibilities for each minor shape. There's one shape for the tonic being found on each string.

http://www.dee.email/OPEN/triadcolorsscale.jpg (Top sheet shows the shapes on e, B, and G.)

All I have to know is these shapes and where the tonics are and from those I can easily build a scale. (The bottom of that pic shows the major scale and how those shapes will fit together. )

As far as adding a bass note, the easiest way, imo, for beginners is just to show them that the octave (which they probably already know) of whatever note is on the top string is four frets down, so the bass note is in the same position for any shape, for me, it's usually my pinky.

You can learn 3 more shapes for diminished and go from there if you want.
This all helps very much with learning the fretboard as well.
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  #71  
Old 05-28-2017, 12:53 PM
lpa53 lpa53 is offline
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Dang! I don't know any of this stuff. I just play all the time. Maybe I need to learn some of it ... one of these days.
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  #72  
Old 05-28-2017, 03:36 PM
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Hi SunnyDee. What you describe is actually what I’m trying to accomplish. I’m terrible at memorization, and would never try to memorize that whole chord chart mattbn73 posted.

My teacher gave me a sheet of paper with a dozen and a half or so chord charts on it. It had been copied, written on, recopied, and so on. I’ve had an interesting time figuring out what he had hand written some years ago. I think all he did was write down 6 chord shapes in 3 places on each of 2 string sets. (1, 2, and 3) (2, 3, and 4) My instructions were: Learn these.

Next, I looked at my Hal Leonard “Fingerpicking Standards” songbook to see how those triads would fit with “two voice” arranged songs. I quickly realized, there wasn’t a complete fit. An awful lot of notes in the melody aren’t in the chords. After looking at the work mattbn73 posted, and reading some stuff on his website, I think I am beginning to get an inkling of how a player can accomplish this.

I have difficulty understanding things until I can see the overall “system” fits together. Those pages of charts Matt posted helped me see there is a system.

Right now I can sight read in first position at about 70BPM. (Naturals only) I’ll need to add all the notes on the first 3 strings to be able to effectively use triads there. In addition, I’ll need to know where the root and the 3rd are in each of the shapes. I think that is the minimum level of knowledge to be able to play all the major and minor triads up and down the neck on the first string set. I just have to decide on a good method to commit it all to memory. (and muscle memory)

Does it sound like I’m approaching this in a reasonable way? Or am I simply expectorating into a brisk breeze.
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  #73  
Old 05-28-2017, 03:48 PM
s0cks s0cks is offline
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Originally Posted by Pine View Post
I’ll need to add all the notes on the first 3 strings to be able to effectively use triads there. In addition, I’ll need to know where the root and the 3rd are in each of the shapes. I think that is the minimum level of knowledge to be able to play all the major and minor triads up and down the neck on the first string set. I just have to decide on a good method to commit it all to memory. (and muscle memory)

Does it sound like I’m approaching this in a reasonable way? Or am I simply expectorating into a brisk breeze.
This is how I've approached it with good success. Start with locating the 3rd & minor 3rd. Then locate the 5th. That gives you access to minor, major and diminished chords (if you know where the 5th is, you know where the flat 5 is).

From there I then went with finding the 7th and minor 7th. That gives you a good bulk of your chords. After that you can locate the 6th and commit that to memory, and then you've only got the 2nd and 4th left. Often used for sus chords, but I guess also add9 and add11.

And the more intervals you commit to memory the easier it gets cus it's like filling out a puzzle. The 5th is always on the same fret a string above, the 4th is always same fret string below. 6th always below the 3rd, etc...
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  #74  
Old 05-28-2017, 04:26 PM
Pine Pine is offline
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Thanks for the method s0cks. In the theory book I'm studying, intervals are about 10 pages ahead. I've read the material through once, but only have a very general concept of it.

I think I understand a major chord formula is: root, major third, perfect fifth. To make a major chord into a minor chord, flatten the major third.

That's really all I know about chord construction so far. And why I limited my response to just major and minor chords.

I think your method will work well for me. I'll start with what I know, Major and Minor, and add the other forms as I learn the theory.

Thanks for taking the time to help such an obvious NOOB.
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  #75  
Old 05-28-2017, 04:40 PM
s0cks s0cks is offline
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Thanks for the method s0cks. In the theory book I'm studying, intervals are about 10 pages ahead. I've read the material through once, but only have a very general concept of it.

I think I understand a major chord formula is: root, major third, perfect fifth. To make a major chord into a minor chord, flatten the major third.

That's really all I know about chord construction so far. And why I limited my response to just major and minor chords.

I think your method will work well for me. I'll start with what I know, Major and Minor, and add the other forms as I learn the theory.

Thanks for taking the time to help such an obvious NOOB.
Yes, intervals are great. Really they are the foundation of music. And what's cool is that you can also transfer it to other instruments too.

My parents have a piano at their place so I decided to try and play a bit. Of course I sucked, but because I understood intervals I was able to figure out how to build chords on the piano even though I've never played a piano before.
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