Guitar vs Vocal volume unplugged

[RalphH]

Hi Guys,

This is probably a really basic question, but I'm a complete beginner when it comes to singing...

When I sing and play - only at home for my wife - she says she can barely hear me sing over the guitar.

Should I expect to be able to sing louder than a strummed (with a pick) guitar? (ie I just need to man up and sing a lot louder), or would you expect to need a mic to be able to sing loud enough that a strummed guitar sounds like the backing instrument it's meant to be?

Yes I could strum it with my thumb or just attempt to play it gentler, but that's not what I'm asking - I want to know if I should be able to overpower a strummed guitar with my unamplified voice or if that's unrealistic for an average joe singer - I'm sure Pavarotti could do it. If it is perfectly doable I'll learn to do it.

Thanks!

p.s. I wasn't really sure where to post this. Mods please move if this isn't the right place.

[DownUpDave]

Think of people sitting around a campfire strumming and singing, no mic required. There are people who can really belt it out, my brother in-law, over an aggressively strummed guitar. Then there are people like me who have to strum softer to be heard.

It really depends on your vocal chords. Either spend the time to learn to sing louder or learn to play softer.

[Silly Moustache]

Hi Ralph,

Just like with actors in a theatre, we have to learn to use our voice fully, or at least appropriate to our "Audience."

I confess that when I started (way back) I tried to sing at intimate talking level) and it simply didn't work.

I later foud myself as a bluegrass band sideman and that encouraged me to use my voice a bit louder, but the big change came when I was singing/playing solo- and an acquaintance announced that she was to offer singing lessons.

I was her first client. In fact it was all rather simplistic in that she made me aware that I simply wasn't using my lungs or my throat properly.

Most of us, tend to be a little "polite" - we don't seek to speak louder than others, but when singing - you need to project you voice.

There is, of course a difference between singing and shouting - the former can be beautiful and the latter horrible.

I perceived three things:

1. we tend to restrict our voices by "choking" or holding tension in our throats.

This bit is like learning to use our voice (essentially a wind instrument like a flute or trumpet) properly. You need to hold yourself erect - good posute back straight. and NECK straight - open your mouth and sing a few notes - they will be louder.

2. It is very easy to fill our lungs - but we rarely do unless we need to run or something which gets us out of breath. We tend to fill the top pasrt of our lungs but not the bottom.
My teacher refused to let me sit when I sung, 'cos it is easier to be lazy sitting. So, stand with your hands spread out so your fingers are spread out over your abdomen with your thumbs just under the bottom of your ribs.
Breath in slowly until you can feel your rib cage rising, then go a little higher. That is how we fill all of our lungs.

Pretty so you will find that your voice, with full or fuller lungs will sound louder easily. Initially you might need to cough or even feel a bit dizzy - That will pass.

This might help :

3. confidence. As I said we like to be polite in company, and so don't shout or speak louder than others. When you sing - YOU are acceptably the centre of attention. This is what some of us find difficult - it is OK to sing louder than you talk. Open it up- let ig go, it will feel good and people will listen.

Y'know there are loads of YouTube videos about learning to sing and it's worth paddling through some, but you've given me an idea for making one of my own..

Let my know how you get on.

[SalFromChatham]

Sing louder and or watch playing dynamics better... you will get the most bag for the buck adjusting these two.

At the margin, you can use different strings maybe... nickel, or silk and steel?

[RalphH]

Thanks guys for the replies - very useful.

I now have my answer;

I had another go, really pushing it out from the lower abdomen to out-volume the guitar and go told the end result was just much too loud for indoors.

I've been told I just need to strum quieter.

Was good to force myself to have a at really loud singing though. Was quite liberating actually

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by RalphH

Thanks guys for the replies - very useful.

I now have my answer;

I had another go, really pushing it out from the lower abdomen to out-volume the guitar and go told the end result was just much too loud for indoors.

I've been told I just need to strum quieter.

Was good to force myself to have a at really loud singing though. Was quite liberating actually

The correct answer to your original question arguably is both yes and no

Yes : you should sing loud enough so that you can be heard and the lyrics are intelligible.

No : your voice should not "overpower" the guitar.

As a solo guitar player singer there is no more logical reason to have your voice "outpower" the guitar, than is to have the guitar drown out your voice.

As in most things in life "Balance" is the key

P.S. since your OP asks about possibly using a mic as an alternative , I think the thread is probably equally fine either here or in the Play and Write forum, your choice .

[RalphH]

Originally Posted by KevWind

As in most things in life "Balance" is the key

That's true, and I'm not looking to drown out the guitar, but if you listen to the mix on most singer-songwriter type recordings, the vocals are generally quite a bit louder than the guitar or 'at the front of the mix' if you like, at least while the singing is happening, and it just felt like that was asking a lot of my voice when it's a dreadnought being strummed with a pick you're trying to be louder than.

Coming back to Silly Moustache's post, I've watched plenty of videos about singing and I understand the importance of breath support etc. If I have a problem with singing it's definitely a confidence problem I think...

...but what I was really getting here is that I'm not sure I've ever heard a 'real' singer live without amplification, so it's kinda hard to know how loud other people actually sing; I just couldn't tell if I should play quieter or sing louder. Strumming without a pick produces a more balanced sounding 'mix', I just wasn't really sure if that was the right answer.

With a youtube or a studio recording, it's kinda hard for me to know whether the singer is actually really quiet or if being in the same room would be deafening - levels can always be adjusted. I've recorded myself and until I get to the point where I'm almost shouting or almost whispering it doesn't really seem to affect tone all that much - yeah opening my mouth a bit more tends to make vowels brighter etc, but it's not night and day to me. Probably when I know more about singing I'll be able to tell more easily.

[varmonter]

I too believe
The vocal should be slightly
Louder than the guitar. Just like
A lead is louder than rythm.
Sounds to me like you can certainly
Do it .. as you were told when you
Did that it was too loud for inside.
Find the happy medium..
When you perform in front of others
Its normal starting out to be a bit self
Conscious. This manafests itself in many ways. One of which is the tenancy to lay back a bit.. practicing and forcing
Yourself to sing in front of others is the only cure. Personally for me when I was just starting out,singing in front of strangers was easier than people I know.
But once you start getting positive feedback..you'll get more comfortable.
Silly moustache pretty much summed
It up in his post..
When you sing be conscious of your playing.
Dont strum louder just because your singing.
You'll just have to sing louder....vicious circle

[Chriscom]

I decided against buying my lifelong dream, a Martin dreadnought, because it was so loud and I have only a moderately strong voice at best. Amplification solves that problem but I still want to sing in friends' homes etc without kit.

(Got a beautiful Martin in the Grand Performance line with a thinner body and lower, but still plenty, natural volume).

Yes you can learn to strum a bit more gently and sing a little louder. One other trick: Try using a thinner pick. Less volume. At a really thin level they're too wobbly for leads and riffs, but can do fine for strumming.

Edit: Lighter strings too.

[RalphH]

Originally Posted by varmonter

Personally for me when I was just starting out,singing in front of strangers was easier than people I know.

That is proabably very true for me too. I find it very hard to sing in front of my wife. I actually find it really easy in front of my kids (7 and 3) as they have no basis for comparison and wouldn't judge me anyway - they're still young enough that everything I do is right - so they cheer and clap and tell me I'm great, as where my wife tends to grimace and ask if I'm done yet

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by RalphH

That's true, and I'm not looking to drown out the guitar, but if you listen to the mix on most singer-songwriter type recordings, the vocals are generally quite a bit louder than the guitar or 'at the front of the mix' if you like, at least while the singing is happening, and it just felt like that was asking a lot of my voice when it's a dreadnought being strummed with a pick you're trying to be louder than.

Coming back to Silly Moustache's post, I've watched plenty of videos about singing and I understand the importance of breath support etc. If I have a problem with singing it's definitely a confidence problem I think...

...but what I was really getting here is that I'm not sure I've ever heard a 'real' singer live without amplification, so it's kinda hard to know how loud other people actually sing; I just couldn't tell if I should play quieter or sing louder. Strumming without a pick produces a more balanced sounding 'mix', I just wasn't really sure if that was the right answer.

With a youtube or a studio recording, it's kinda hard for me to know whether the singer is actually really quiet or if being in the same room would be deafening - levels can always be adjusted. I've recorded myself and until I get to the point where I'm almost shouting or almost whispering it doesn't really seem to affect tone all that much - yeah opening my mouth a bit more tends to make vowels brighter etc, but it's not night and day to me. Probably when I know more about singing I'll be able to tell more easily.

Since you mentioned "outpower the guitar " is why I mentioned it. And you are correct in recordings of a vocal/guitar arrangement most prefer the vocal at the "front of the mix" (but from an engineering standpoint understand that being forward (and intelligible) in the mix, is not the exact same thing as simply being louder) it has much more to do with other mixing elements such as EQ, Compression and sound stage placement.
Also note that the "plugged in" recorded and mixed sound and what the mic detects out in front of the guitar and mouth, is not the same thing as what the "unplugged /player singer hears at their own ears . And note the best singer/guitar player recordings or live performances while having the vocal forward, the guitar is still very identifiable and hearable.

SO in all cases recording or just playing in your front room "Balance" is the key.

And to clarify learning to control the volume of the guitar is not a matter of pick or no pick , it is a matter learning control and "hearing" balance.

At the risk of shameless self promotion if you listen to this video below you will find there is very little difference volume (db) wise , between the vocal and guitar, what is going on is matter of some EQ, & Compression , but most importantly (since it is a one shot , simultaneous vocal and guitar take, and fairly close to what I sound like live in the room unplugged) is "Balance" between my singing and playing because balance wise, I am not singing particularly over loud and note I am not using headphones , so I am hearing the unplugged unamplified sound , and creating a balance . And no doubt I have playing an singing since 1964 so there is that

[RalphH]

Originally Posted by KevWind

And to clarify learning to control the volume of the guitar is not a matter of pick or no pick , it is a matter learning control and "hearing" balance

It's a "no thought required" shortcut to making it much quieter, but I agree it's not the same as actually learning to listen and be able to properly self balance.

At the moment it's early days and the fact I can get the right words out in the right order, at the right pitch, with the right chords at the right time with the right strumming pattern seems like a win

It would probably benefit me greatly to have some singing lessons - specifically around singing and playing so I can get more precise feedback than "Yay!" (kids) or "Eugh!" (wife)

[hotroad]

I have been gigging nearly full time for thirty years and can say that its fairly easy to sing louder than my guitar with any amplification of either. So to me it seems that you are playing too loudly. Not sure where you learned to do that but you may have to change a habit to balance out voice and guitar unplugged. The acoustic guitar is a beautiful instrument to play unplugged so I encourage you to practice playing with more touch and finesse. Might try a softer pick as well. Good luck with your efforts. They will pay off big time.

[RalphH]

Originally Posted by hotroad

I have been gigging nearly full time for thirty years and can say that its fairly easy to sing louder than my guitar with any amplification of either. So to me it seems that you are playing too loudly. Not sure where you learned to do that but you may have to change a habit to balance out voice and guitar unplugged. The acoustic guitar is a beautiful instrument to play unplugged so I encourage you to practice playing with more touch and finesse. Might try a softer pick as well. Good luck with your efforts. They will pay off big time.

The funny thing is I play with a .6mm celluloid pick for strumming, which I hold with an extremely lightly, springy grip. I dont think I'm a heavy player at all - I think I have a pretty light touch. I think I'm just a really quiet singer because I very self conscious about the singing.

My wife probably has a low threshold for 'too loud' when it comes to me playing in a small room. This is why I need some 3rd party feedback.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by RalphH

I think I'm just a really quiet singer because I very self conscious about the singing.

Probably the correct diagnosis. That will lessen with practice and time.

I did take one singing lesson years ago and the best takeaway I received from the coach was that (especially when you tend to be self conscious and sing quietly) is that it takes a certain amount air to hit the correct notes in general and particularly in your upper register. So you need to try to do the reverse of what you think and do, and push a bit more air (a bit louder) especially in your upper range