Chord Formulas

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by tomh

Stupid question time:

Take a first position C chord. Why does low E string sound bad, when E is part of the chord?

It sounds fine, in certain situations - typically when the chord is leading somewhere else, especially to F. That's what Kings of Leon do in Use Somebody: |C - - - |C/E - - - |F - - - .

But in general, yes, you wouldn't strum C/E for any length of time. It's not that it sounds "bad" in itself, but we're so used to "1st inversion" chords (3rd in the bass) being used as passing chords in scalewise bass lines.

The one guitarists know best is D/F#. Like C/E, you wouldn't strum D/F# for any length of time, certainly not any time you see a plain "D" chord. But we use it all the time between G and Em, in either direction.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Jon, you got complicated on me!

Yes, I couldn't help myself!
But I've had a little lie-down, and I'm feeling fine now.

[hubcapsc]

x54455

Or... 554455... the 5th degree pentatonic scale edge in D.

-Mike

[mr. beaumont]

And not to get too far off track, but I like to play an Fadd9/G for that chord:

3x3213

SOOOOOOO....let's let that be a nice transition into looking at what a chord symbol "means."

Fadd9/G

F...when the first letter is not followed immediately by a "m" (minor) or a number, major is implied...so F A C (root third fifth)...plus a ninth...G....and a G in the bass (after the "/" is specifically what's on the bottom)

What chord symbols DON'T give is a specific voicing...so you get what notes to play, but it's up to you to figure out where to play them. Sometimes it's easy and obvious...sometimes not.


Every chord you encounter can be picked apart this way.

[JonPR]

Another tip if you find a mix of notes on the guitar and want to find out the chord name (if it has one).

First, you need to know the notes in it! Write them all out, making sure you only have one of each letter. (Sharps and flats sometimes have to be mixed, but to begin with try to stick to only sharps or only flats.)

Then line them up against a 1 3 5 7 9 11 13 grid. Assume one of the notes will be "1" (root) - sometimes chords omit the root, but that involves another stage if you don't get a convincing root this way. So there will be as many arrangements as there are notes in the chord.

Here's an example: x-0-3-5-5-3.

Five different notes = A F C E G. Here's the possible ways they fit the stack of 3rds:

1  3  5  7  9  11 13
A  C  E  G  -  -  F
C  E  G  -  -  F  A
E  G  -  -  F  A  C
G  -  -  F  A  C  E
F  A  C  E  G  -  -

The favourite there is obviously the last one, because it's a 1-3-5-7-9 stack with nothing missing. So it's Fmaj9, and if it's important that A is the bass note, we can call it "Fmaj9/A".

The first one might be tempting - Am7(b13)? - especially as A is the bass note. So this could be an alternative name. What makes it less suitable is that a reader might be tempted to try to voice it with the F above the E, which is an "avoid note" dissonance.

(Jeff is quite right that chord symbols are not supposed to suggest voicing, but it's still easy to read such a symbol as the writer's attempt to show that the F should go above the E, i.e., that they want that dissonance. Otherwise, they would write "Fmaj9/A" .

The second line also begins with a clear C major triad, with the A making it "C6" (not "C(add13"). But it still has the F ("add11") above the E. And also, in this case, C is not the bass note anyway, so there is less call to name it as a C chord (at least when other options are available).

[Nama Ensou]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

It's the interval between the low E and low C note on the fifth string. Play just those two notes together.

If you want the fancy answer it's that the major third interval (E above C) is inverted, C above E is a minor sixth, and that is a dissonant sound. There are times that interval can sound great...but it's too much for the bottom of a plain old C chord.

Posts like this and #1 as well are pure gold because they aren't dumbed down, and yet the wording is so clear and easy to understand, which is the mark of a great instructor, no matter what the field.

Thanks for this one in particular.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Nama Ensou

Posts like this and #1 as well are pure gold because they aren't dumbed down, and yet the wording is so clear and easy to understand, which is the mark of a great instructor, no matter what the field.

Thanks for this one in particular.

Just to be clear there, the minor 6th is not strictly "dissonant", it just sounds weird because of the inversion. It's a consonant interval "upside down". C is its natural root, and we expect roots to be on the bottom.

Try this on the guitar:

----------------------------
-0----1-----------------------
----------------------------
-3----2-----------------------
----------------------------
----------------------------

That's a dissonance (F-B tritone) moving to a consonance (E-C minor 6th). You can add the open G in between if it helps, to make a partial G7 and a full C major triad.

Of course, it's more consonant - more "resolved" - if you add the C on 5th string to the last chord. But even without that you should hear the sense of movement to consonance from the 2-note chords. IOW, there is a dissonance-consonance spectrum. There are degrees of both dissonance and consonance.

[mr. beaumont]

Jon's point above is important.

The guitar is an interesting instrument...range is important with certain intervals, the m6 sound too low in the guitar's spectrum can sound muddy, especially when coupled with the rest of that C chord.

Even the strings you play the same note on can matter...play the m6 E to C interval Jon shows above on the 4th and 2nd strings, then try putting the C on the 5th fret of the 3rd string instead...different, right?

[Charlie Bernstein]

Originally Posted by tomh

Stupid question time:

Take a first position C chord. Why does low E string sound bad, when E is part of the chord?

Does it? I think it entirely depends on the chord progression. Sometimes we want the fifth string's C, sometimes the sixth string's G, and sometimes the sixth string's E.

In chord charts in a given key, the bass note is in parentheses when it's not the root note.

So, for instance, for the intro, bridge, and outro of a song I play in G, It goes C G Am C(E) G. Using a low G or C there instead of E sounds wrong, wrong, wrong. Try it and see.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by Charlie Bernstein

Does it? I think it entirely depends on the chord progression. Sometimes we want the fifth string's C, sometimes the sixth string's G, and sometimes the sixth string's E.

In chord charts in a given key, the bass note is in parentheses when it's not the root note.

So, for instance, for the intro, bridge, and outro of a song I play in G, It goes C G Am C(E) G. Using a low G or C there instead of E sounds wrong, wrong, wrong. Try it and see.

I dunno, I think an Em sounds better there. But as a point of movement, yeah, chords can certainly have different bass notes...

But I think Nama was asking about in isolation anyway. Jon already covered the moving bass thing, like with the D/F# chord everyone knows.

And then there's just the timbre of two adjacent strings, and one of them being open. If you play a D/F# in isolation, then a C/E, I think you'll hear it.

[mawmow]

Many years ago, with pencil and paper, I figured out major scales on the neck in standard tuning,
marking b3 to get the minor scales, triads as a start to build chords.

To add to what I already read here, I so learned that the four notes of the diminished chords
are equidistant, as well as the three notes of the augmented triads.
Funny !

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by mawmow

Many years ago, with pencil and paper,

Ah yes - pencil and paper: the indispensible tools of the self-taught!

You can read all the books you like, watch all the DVDs and youtubes you like. But until you get physically involved - writing, drawing, playing - the stuff doesn't get embedded.
Information has to be turned into experience - and even pencil&paper experience counts.

Sometimes old boomers do have stuff worth saying! (Not all the time, obviously But sometimes....)

[mr. beaumont]

Man, writing stuff out is huge...

When I learn a new tune, for example, one of the first things I do is just write out the chords. Just that process itself helps me internalize things more quickly.

[Big Band Guitar]

Originally Posted by mawmow

Many years ago, with pencil and paper, I figured out major scales on the neck in standard tuning,
marking b3 to get the minor scales, triads as a start to build chords.

To add to what I already read here, I so learned that the four notes of the diminished chords
are equidistant, as well as the three notes of the augmented triads.
Funny !

Not to be picky, but I'm going to be.

Diminished chord is a triad.
Diminished 7 is a 4 note chord.

I use them interchangeably.

[aK_bAsh7]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Inspired by the "Why?" thread--You can figure out the notes in ANY chord you see by applying simple formulas to the major scale of the ROOT of the chord in question.

This goes for major or minor chords...bear with me, it's actually easy. You just need to know your major scales.If you don't know them yet, find them, print them out, and keep them by where you practice.

Then you number each note...1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Here's some formulas...

major: 1 3 5
minor: 1 b3 5
major 7: 1 3 5 7
minor 7: 1 b3 5 b7
dominant 7 (often just called "7") 1 3 5 b7
m7b5 (half diminished) 1 b3 b5 b7
diminished 7: 1 b3 b5 bb7 (that's not a typo, double flatted seventh)

extended chords, like the 9th, 11th and 13th are dominant chords which means b7. The 9th is the same note as the 2, 11ths are 4ths, 13 is the same as a 6 (it's like the numbering just kept going if you repeated the scale)
when you have an extended chord, it's assumed that all the extensions below it are present too (or at least fair game)

so 9: 1 3 5 b7 9

11th: 1 3 5 b7 9 11

13th: 1 3 5 b7 9 11 13.

You'll notice the 13th chord has 7 notes. Not going to happen on guitar...therefore guitar players will often make sure they're playing the most important notes...a common 13th chord voicing is 1 b7 3 6(13)

you can have major 9, 11 and 13 chords as well. These have a 7, not a b7.

11th chords are a little strange...we can go into that more later, but something like a maj11 chord is going to sound better with a b5. Let's not get too weird yet though, I'm trying to prove this is easy

So...if this interests you at all, throw a chord out there, one that looks really complicated, and we'll work through how to apply the formulas...

Great, clear explanation!

I've tried teaching this to numerous guitar playing buddies and have failed consistently. The biggest hang-up seems to be a lack of ability to shift back and forth between regarding notes as frequencies/pitches and notes as tones/intervals. A lot of people can't seem to get this.

Of course, if one doesn't apply it, it won't "stick" but one doesn't have to play Jazz to utilize such knowledge. For example, one practical use is figuring out "slash" chords to make smoother chord transitions. This is applicable in many popular genres and an easy way to add interest to basic chord progressions.

if we have C G Am

Note that the G triad formula is (R, 3, 5) or G, B, D. You don't have to always play a G triad with the tones in this particular order. Note that the 3rd of the G triad is B. What if we played G with the B in the bass? This gives us ;

C G/b Am

Note the smoother step-wise transitions in the bass : c -> b -> a

Of course, if this doesn't sound better to you, you'll have no reason to use it!

I only got into basic theory because it helped me make sounds I liked that I hadn't been able to make before learning it.