Lazy amplification

[jimmy bookout]

I am just home from the Chet Atkins Appreciation Society and I need to cover something that really bugged me and my friends in attendance:

How can PROFESSIONAL guitarist have such amazingly bad plugged in tone? I would prefer to not name names, but the number of guys that went up on that stage, plugged in acoustic/electric guitars (with little or no signal processing), and sounded HORRENDOUS was shocking. It is 2016....this is inexcusable and, IMO, just plain lazy. I play in restaurants for goodness sakes, and my plugged in tone is MILES better than the majority of guys I heard this past week.

To be balanced, 2 guys (that I heard) stuck out for really GOOD plugged in tone....Tommy Emmanuel and Rick Allred.

In closing, I am not suggesting that plugged in acoustic guitars must sound like acoustic guitars, just "louder". I am talking about getting a tone that is, at least, pleasant....Sadly, piezo QUACK/no presence/loads of midrange were all in attendance, IN SPADES...you know, all the classic Undersaddle Transducer crappy sounds, which, in 2016, can be tamed with VERY little effort/monetary outlay.

Rant off

Jimmy

[Mandobart]

Some musicians are awesome players but crappy sound techs. That's why there are pros that do sound. I can't explain why an experienced musician would not use a good sound tech at an event like that. Maybe what they all had in common was a crappy sound guy?

[tadol]

I've found that the audio system is suspect at many venues, but second the idea that it was probably a bad sound tech. It always amazes me to see the techs wearing earplugs while the audience suffers with too loud and distorted sound - but I always try to carry ear plugs with me, and it does usually sound better with them in!

[Petty1818]

It definitely sounds more like a sound tech issue. I find that it's actually fairly hard to make a pickup sound terrible. I know this sounds weird but sound systems and pickups have come such a long way. Even my buddy who uses an old Fishman matrix UST, is able to dial in a pleasing tone by just playing with the eq a bit.

[Marty C]

I agree with all above. However 2 guys had good tone? I wonder if Tommy and Rick had bad experiences with more bad sound techs and are better prepared? Or do the rest really concentrate on playing and let someone else deal with the sound.

As for me, I think this tone responsibility remains in most cases ... The responsibly of the guy who is doing the playing and singing.

I agree, I hate crappy sound. However, I would probably be a much better player/singer if I spent more time on my art than my sound.

[steelvibe]

Originally Posted by Marty C

I agree, I hate crappy sound. However, I would probably be a much better player/singer if I spent more time on my art than my sound.

Yes, but wouldn't you also agree with the OP statement that these highly professional and often well paid musicians are just being lazy? I would add cheap! I mean, I don't even get paid to play in front of people (yet) and own a pre/di that improves my tone and didn't break the bank (we are talking less than $150).

Even if I had a plug and play set up in front of me just screaming "convenience" but we're a standard DI, I would swap it out for a better unit with a parametric mid control, that just know inside and out, and tweak my sound on the fly.....

However, having a great sound person is invaluable because they hear what the audience hears. I know for a fact the Tommy sounds amazing live, but he uses AER Pocket Tools and hires a killer sound tech to follow him on the road. His set up is simple but effective 😉

[Tomm Williams]

Originally Posted by Marty C

I agree with all above. However 2 guys had good tone? I wonder if Tommy and Rick had bad experiences with more bad sound techs and are better prepared? Or do the rest really concentrate on playing and let someone else deal with the sound.

As for me, I think this tone responsibility remains in most cases ... The responsibly of the guy who is doing the playing and singing.

I agree, I hate crappy sound. However, I would probably be a much better player/singer if I spent more time on my art than my sound.

Bingo !

Clearly the blame can be spread around here at a minimum. As a musician and working sound provider, allow me to toss in my 2 cents as to some of the possible issues at play here. First off, if there is not time for a detailed sound check with every act, the sound guy will have his hands full trying to figure out why that instrument isn't sounding right WHILE the performance is already going on. For those of you who've been behind a console while this is happening, you know what I'm talking about. Performers plugging into the wrong input on their own pre-amps, dead batteries in their pre-amps, gain turned up too high causing the pre to clip or too low where I have to drive the snot out of the head amp to make it up. EQ settings on the pre that don't work for the venue system, etc...... All of these are things I can't fix from FOH. At that point it becomes "combat audio" and I'm forced to do the best I can which is rarely good enough. I mention the above things as I just finished an event where ALL of those things took place during an acoustic festival in the span of one band.
Now..........lets be clear, it's the job of the sound tech to recognize these things as quickly as possible and fix as much as can be fixed. The difference between an experienced tech and one not so much can be horrific. If there was plenty of time for sound checks and he didn't do so.........His fault all the way. The FOH tech was hired for a reason and that's to provide a pleasant event for all but there is only so much that can be accomplished if I'm working up-hill. If it was more of a rapid-fire festival sort of thing, the bands MUST help out a bit and have their ends tied up tight.
The fact that two performers sounded great and the other not so much tells me blame probably can't be pointed in just one direction here.

[Marty C]

Originally Posted by steelvibe

Yes, but wouldn't you also agree with the OP statement that these highly professional and often well paid musicians are just being lazy? I would add cheap! I mean, I don't even get paid to play in front of people (yet) and own a pre/di that improves my tone and didn't break the bank (we are talking less than $150).

Even if I had a plug and play set up in front of me just screaming "convenience" but we're a standard DI, I would swap it out for a better unit with a parametric mid control, that just know inside and out, and tweak my sound on the fly.....

However, having a great sound person is invaluable because they hear what the audience hears. I know for a fact the Tommy sounds amazing live, but he uses AER Pocket Tools and hires a killer sound tech to follow him on the road. His set up is simple but effective 😉

Sure I would agree with the OP. I am not a professional, meaning I make my living another way - not music related. I probably don't have the experiences many of you have.

I have played in a bunch of different churches over the years. Some great systems, some horrible systems, some great sound techs and some horrible sound techs. And any combination of the above as well. I saw many musicians who could play much better than me, but their tone was horrible. Spent tons on a guitar and little there after. Or spent tons of money on equipment and really didn't know how to use it very well.

As far as acoustic, I have seen very few times that a simple eq or Adjustable DI couldn't made a difference. As a musician, I know better what I want my sound to be and consider it my responsibility to do my best (includes equipment and skill). I always have this in my guitar case. May not need it, but I most often do.

I agree that even a good sound tech often can't control the signal that is coming to him. He has to do the best with what he has. Again I think it falls back on the musician to deliver the best signal/tone possible.

[Sarasin]

Was Tommy the headlining act? Maybe that would explain that he sounded better. Usually when multiple bands play the headliners get the best sound check.

I know he relies on his AER and sends that to the FOH which guarantees him a consistent tone.

[Petty1818]

Was Richard smith there as well? I think I found a video from this event on YouTube. Richard's guitar sounds great. I would like to hear these terrible tones that you speak of.

[jimmy bookout]

Just to clarify:
All the "Bad" tone guys were using the same sound equipment and same guy running the board. This bad tone was, IMO, NOT the guys running the board, this was guys plugging directly in, Rick (Allred) took his pedal board up on stage with him, came out of his board into the main mixing board. Tommy did his usual set-up with the AER.
Understand that the way the CAAS works (on the main stage), NO ONE is getting to do a soundcheck. One act finishes, the next act goes up, plugs in, gets a level, and off they go. The issue here is what the musician is giving the FOH in terms of signal, and that falls squarely on the musician.

Jimmy

PS. I should also give kudos to John Knowles for his plugged in sound!

PSS. I hope everyone will understand my not naming names, that would turn this in a direction no one needs it to go.

[jimmy bookout]

Originally Posted by Marty C

Sure I would agree with the OP. I am not a professional, meaning I make my living another way - not music related. I probably don't have the experiences many of you have.

I have played in a bunch of different churches over the years. Some great systems, some horrible systems, some great sound techs and some horrible sound techs. And any combination of the above as well. I saw many musicians who could play much better than me, but their tone was horrible. Spent tons on a guitar and little there after. Or spent tons of money on equipment and really didn't know how to use it very well.

As far as acoustic, I have seen very few times that a simple eq or Adjustable DI couldn't made a difference. As a musician, I know better what I want my sound to be and consider it my responsibility to do my best (includes equipment and skill). I always have this in my guitar case. May not need it, but I most often do.

I agree that even a good sound tech often can't control the signal that is coming to him. He has to do the best with what he has. Again I think it falls back on the musician to deliver the best signal/tone possible.

+1 on everything you said.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by jimmy bookout

Just to clarify:
All the "Bad" tone guys were using the same sound equipment and same guy running the board. This bad tone was, IMO, NOT the guys running the board, this was guys plugging directly in, Rick (Allred) took his pedal board up on stage with him, came out of his board into the main mixing board. Tommy did his usual set-up with the AER.
Understand that the way the CAAS works (on the main stage), NO ONE is getting to do a soundcheck. One act finishes, the next act goes up, plugs in, gets a level, and off they go. The issue here is what the musician is giving the FOH in terms of signal, and that falls squarely on the musician.

Jimmy

PS. I should also give kudos to John Knowles for his plugged in sound!

PSS. I hope everyone will understand my not naming names, that would turn this in a direction no one needs it to go.

Okay that changes things a bit. IMO, with this information, the issue is 100% with the sound man. I am not really sure how you can call the musicians lazy when it's such a quick set up, without a sound check and with a sound man there? I really don't understand your argument at all. I have an acoustic board with preamps and DI's etc but when I go to a show where a sound system and sound man are provided, I usually just run out of my DI's and let the sound man do his thing.

I have done many shows where we don't get a sound check and have to rely on the sound man. It's just what you do, I am not sure if they would appreciate musicians tweaking their sound and holding things up. Furthermore, any tweaks that the musicians make on stage can easily be changed by the FOH guy.

Tommy Emmanuel does take his tone seriously but he also uses a Maton guitar, which has a great pickup that's really hard to make sound bad. The other musicians might be using piezo style pickups that they generally tweak when they have time. That's 100% on the sound man.

On a side note, was Richard Smith there?

[jimmy bookout]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

Okay that changes things a bit. IMO, with this information, the issue is 100% with the sound man. I am not really sure how you can call the musicians lazy when it's such a quick set up, without a sound check and with a sound man there? I really don't understand your argument at all. I have an acoustic board with preamps and DI's etc but when I go to a show where a sound system and sound man are provided, I usually just run out of my DI's and let the sound man do his thing.

I have done many shows where we don't get a sound check and have to rely on the sound man. It's just what you do, I am not sure if they would appreciate musicians tweaking their sound and holding things up. Furthermore, any tweaks that the musicians make on stage can easily be changed by the FOH guy.

Tommy Emmanuel does take his tone seriously but he also uses a Maton guitar, which has a great pickup that's really hard to make sound bad. The other musicians might be using piezo style pickups that they generally tweak when they have time. That's 100% on the sound man.

On a side note, was Richard Smith there?

I have been performing live for 25+ years, including many big venues opening for the Charlotte Pops etc.... I have NEVER had an issue with the "sound man", I tell them to set everything flat and get a level, and I do any adjustment needed on my guitar and pedal board (I use Baggs iBeam in my guitars). Obviously, every sound reinforcement system is different, but in the case of CAAS, which I have been attending since 1991, the system in place is not the problem.

I think that we should agree to disagree, as if I say more, this will become an argument, which was not my intention at all (I hesitated even bringing this up). And yes, Richard was there.

Jimmy

PS. When a guitarist walks up and plugs straight from guitar to DI to FOH, with NO signal processing being done by the musician (out board preamp/etc), I'm sorry, I consider that "lazy". I don't care whether he/she is SBT/UST/Combo/etc, trusting an onboard preamp with 9V battery to drive a signal cleanly through that much cable just doesn't work. All of the above is MY OPINION only (and based on 2+ decades of searching for the acoustic guitar amplification "Holy Grail". My house is littered with discarded pickup/preamp systems, etc).

[Bobby1note]

Having shared their experience, I have to agree with Tomm and Marty to a large degree. Any musician who believes the soundman "should" be able to fix any problems despite their insistence that "they" know their own tone best, especially without a pre-show sound-check, or even a brief discussion beforehand, is just asking for issues.

The worst offenders (in my experience anyway) are those musicians who want to "compete with" the FOH sound-system, using their own amps, aimed squarely at FOH. System-Overlap nightmare, with no possibility of control from the console. I may work once with a guy like that, but there will be no second time around.