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  #16  
Old 05-23-2017, 09:47 AM
FrankHudson FrankHudson is offline
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There's the emotional, empathic response we have. And we should have that: we're all at least attempted musicians here, and many of us are parents, so there are special intensifiers. For many of us, suffering those feelings in solidarity with the victims is our first duty.

And Larry Pattis' comment above is so true. My observation is that human beings are not mostly capable of this, most of the time; but history teaches us that they are capable of this, and even worse, some times.

The cold, tactical reason for this is that terrorism is designed to cause one of two outcomes, either of which is desirable to the perpetrator. The first outcome, is that it may wear-down an opponents will to continue to oppose the perpetrator. While this sometimes happens, it's actually the least likely of the outcomes.

The second outcome aimed for by the perpetrators is that it may cause a disproportionate response, a response that says let loose our monstrous nature as just retribution. But monsters unleashed breed more monsters. This is the more likely response, and it's not a sure win for the perpetrators--though it's a puncher's chance--and it is a sure win for monsters.
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  #17  
Old 05-23-2017, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Pattis View Post
I have been asking myself the same question with unfortunate regularity ever since April 19, 1995, when Timothy McVeigh blew up the Oklahoma City FBI building, killing hundreds, including pre-schoolers.

The only answer I have ever come up with is that human beings like to think that they are rational creatures; instead, we are really a species that can rationalize just about anything.
I agree with this Larry. The event that hangs with me as some kind of personal watershed was the mass shooting that took place in 1966 when Charles Whitman opened fire from the observation deck at The University of Texas. He indiscriminately shot people on the surrounding campus and streets. I believe there were 17 killed and 31 injured. I'm not sure what motivated the former Marine sharpshooter, but it made an indelible mark on my thinking.
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  #18  
Old 05-23-2017, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Pattis View Post
I have been asking myself the same question with unfortunate regularity ever since April 19, 1995, when Timothy McVeigh blew up the Oklahoma City FBI building, killing hundreds, including pre-schoolers.

The only answer I have ever come up with is that human beings like to think that they are rational creatures; instead, we are really a species that can rationalize just about anything.
..........
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  #19  
Old 05-23-2017, 12:10 PM
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As horrible as it is, never delude yourself that this person and act doesn't have supporters.They may cheer openly or they may be more subtle and seemingly condemn the act, that condemnation quickly followed by a "but".

Take away the support and the motivation to do things like this dissolves. Maybe when the logistics and moral supporters end up in court facing charges as co-conspirators, we'll se some reticence to get involved.
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  #20  
Old 05-23-2017, 12:24 PM
ahorsewithnonam ahorsewithnonam is offline
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Originally Posted by Haasome View Post
I agree with this Larry. The event that hangs with me as some kind of personal watershed was the mass shooting that took place in 1966 when Charles Whitman opened fire from the observation deck at The University of Texas. He indiscriminately shot people on the surrounding campus and streets. I believe there were 17 killed and 31 injured. I'm not sure what motivated the former Marine sharpshooter, but it made an indelible mark on my thinking.
He had a brain tumor if I remember which caused his delirious behavior.
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  #21  
Old 05-23-2017, 02:06 PM
Dirk Hofman Dirk Hofman is offline
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As horrible as it is, never delude yourself that this person and act doesn't have supporters.They may cheer openly or they may be more subtle and seemingly condemn the act, that condemnation quickly followed by a "but".

Take away the support and the motivation to do things like this dissolves. Maybe when the logistics and moral supporters end up in court facing charges as co-conspirators, we'll se some reticence to get involved.
Does anyone think this isn't the case? Certainly all or almost all such acts historically have support and conspiratorial elements. Police definitely do all they can to prosecute those involved, no? We saw this play out in Paris, Brussels, Boston, etc.
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  #22  
Old 05-23-2017, 02:11 PM
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debbie downer here to say:

I do not think we're going to solve this here on AGF.

If any one of us were capable of making this awfulness go away, we'd have done it already. (or so I would hope!)

We can't even agree on which strings sound best on a D-18; how in the world are we going to reverse the entrenched misery affecting so many people?
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  #23  
Old 05-23-2017, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Dirk Hofman View Post
Never seen it explained better than here:

What ISIS Really Wants
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...-wants/384980/

Heart goes out to the people of Manchester. I trust the Brits will not stand for this.
What a read that was. Thank you. Trying to understand is helpful even as your heart breaks. I have learned too much today and need quiet time...
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  #24  
Old 05-23-2017, 05:30 PM
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I don't care about why right now, we can arrive at that after we take action to prevent more attacks.
I think why is the only key in dealing with this type of thing. Otherwise you're playing wack the mole forever.
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  #25  
Old 05-23-2017, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly View Post
I think why is the only key in dealing with this type of thing. Otherwise you're playing wack the mole forever.
Which unfortunately, is exactly what will continue no matter what.
This is, has been and will continue until...

Draw your own conclusion.
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  #26  
Old 05-24-2017, 12:12 AM
Jobe Jobe is offline
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Dirkhofman left a link above. How many of you have read it? It may take twenty minutes of your life to learn something. Read that. Then go from there before spitting thoughts that lack the bigger picture in which the world we live in seems to attend. No disrespect. We all need to learn more. We need to see this thing for what it is. And deal. One way or another.

Last edited by Jobe; 05-24-2017 at 01:54 AM.
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  #27  
Old 05-24-2017, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by amyFB View Post
debbie downer here to say:

I do not think we're going to solve this here on AGF.

If any one of us were capable of making this awfulness go away, we'd have done it already. (or so I would hope!)

We can't even agree on which strings sound best on a D-18; how in the world are we going to reverse the entrenched misery affecting so many people?
No reason not to discuss it though. Acting like something didn't happen because we can't change it doesn't solve anything either....
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  #28  
Old 05-24-2017, 07:09 AM
buddyhu buddyhu is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobe View Post
Dirkhofman left a link above. How many of you have read it? It may take twenty minutes of your life to learn something. Read that. Then go from there before spitting thoughts that lack the bigger picture in which the world we live in seems to attend. No disrespect. We all need to learn more. We need to see this thing for what it is. And deal. One way or another.
Agreed. It is a good, thoughtful article...so even those who disagree with some of what is said may benefit from entertaining the perspective presented.

And while I agree with sled that our inability to "solve" the problem doesn't preclude having a discussion, I think AmyFB's post might be intended to encourage a different kind of discussion, and nudge all of us away from the BIG DECLARATIONS, in the vein of, "X is the only solution; everything else is wrongheaded and weak!".
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  #29  
Old 05-24-2017, 07:39 AM
rokdog49 rokdog49 is offline
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Originally Posted by fazool View Post
That is the very definition of terrorism. They spread "terror" to disrupt the normal functioning of the society they oppose. They use terror to try to drive change.

Unfortunately, we cannot discuss this without crossing lines. Although we like to compartmentalize this into a "small micro-population of extremists" the reality is that the larger population, as a whole, who do not actively stop them are therefore complicit (while happily not getting their own hands dirty).
How is the "larger population" complicit? Just what do you suggest we do that hasn't been tried over and over again for 2000 years and discussed ad nauseum? I'm not being "catty", just asking.
Here is reality:
Man is flawed, flawed men will continue to do evil. You can't stop it.
I'm not suggesting to give up trying, but there is no utopia here.
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Last edited by rokdog49; 05-24-2017 at 09:39 AM.
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  #30  
Old 05-24-2017, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobe View Post
Dirkhofman left a link above. How many of you have read it? It may take twenty minutes of your life to learn something. Read that. Then go from there before spitting thoughts that lack the bigger picture in which the world we live in seems to attend. No disrespect. We all need to learn more. We need to see this thing for what it is. And deal. One way or another.
I read it and it makes some very good pragmatic points. But it also does not (likely because it is focused on a possible solution for the one specific problem of IS) actually address the larger picture and how that might play into what happens if you actually do solve that specific problem. If for example IS would happen to completely dissolve. But none of that larger picture changes, it is a mistake to believe that terrorism will somehow magically stop. The only thing that would stop is IS sponsored terrorism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rokdog49 View Post
How is the "larger population" complicit? Just what do you suggest we do that hasn't been tried over and over again for 2000 years and discussed ad nauseum? I'm not being "catty", just asking.
Here is reality:
Man is flawed, flawed men will continue to do evil. You can't stop it.
I'm not suggesting to give up trying, but there is no Eutopia here.
In reverse order no rational person thinks we can create a Eutopia and no objectively thinking person would even want that to be possible.
That said:
Man being flawed does not restrict the possibility of progress in reducing the foundational causes for organized terrorism.
Make no mistake organized terrorism does not rise in a vacuum, nor does it only take hold only within religious zealotry . It has and does exists beyond the realm of just extreme religious based fanaticism. Historically the word itself was born in a secular uprising attempting to overthrow a monarchy system, in favor of a more democratic one.

What hasn't been tried is putting people in positions of power that do not fight to maintain the status quo, do not play on fear and insecurity, or fantasize and romanticize some rose colored notion of return to the good old days.
What has not been tried is a concerted long term effort to move away from so much oil based energy usage , thereby helping to reduce the necessity of having to maintain so much foreign involvement in the region.
So yes by extension the larger population definitely plays a role as far as terrorism and the middle east
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Last edited by KevWind; 05-24-2017 at 09:11 AM.
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