Why Do Many Amp-Type Products Seem To Be Missing One Or Two Key Features?

[hotroad]

I think the Daedalus speakers are the highest form of sound we know. Add a good amp and effects with all the ins and outs and you got it. But now we are up to $2500 or more easily.

[Cuki79]

Originally Posted by open-road-matt

For me the "unicorn system" would be the AER Slope 60 with a pole mount or the Compact 60 with a built in tilt back.

The Shenandoah compak 300 has a built in tilt? You just have to drill a hole and install a pole mount as MartinGitDave did on the Fishman mini



And if you still want the "remote" feature, you can just unmount the amp half-rack and keep it near you. You'll probably have to wire two extra connectors to have this special feature.



PS: It has separate DI for inputs 1 and 2.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by hotroad

Lots of talk about the Mackie DLM8 here and on other threads. As one looking for the holy grail of tone, how is this little giant compared to some of the line array systems recently out like the JBL Eon One, LD Systems, Revox 8, Nano 600, Evox 5, LD Systems Maui 5, earlier mentioned Elite Acoustics A4BR8.

Sure looking for over the wall, off the chart guitar tone.

Keep looking. It's great, but as a substitute/improvement for other small amplifiers. I think I'm the only one with a unit. I mention it a lot because it's the smallest full power/full range PA speaker you can get. I consider it an upgrade/improvement over the available 20lb acoustic amp products when paired with a mixer or front end like the Play Acoustic pedal. It has huge low end punch for a tiny box. It sounds pretty amazing as an electric guitar speaker.

But, it's more of a niche solution between mini amps and full size equipment than a "do everything" unit for larger crowds. It is a very warm speaker as far as voicing. You like very crisp highs, so this probably isn't for you.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[hotroad]

The search continues but with a lot of new ideas and possibilities thanks to this thread and others. Again, a huge thanks to Martingitdave.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by hotroad

The search continues but with a lot of new ideas and possibilities thanks to this thread and others. Again, a huge thanks to Martingitdave.

Incidentally, I spent some time last night with my DLM8 and the TC Play Acoustic pedal. I was concerned because the Mackie has no master volume level (a key feature Matt requires), which would make quick changes from stage difficult. However, I forgot that the Play Acoustic pedal does under the mixer menu! So, I set the Mackie for plus 5 dB on both channels and did the guitar mic mixing in the pedal. I set the stage volume for the speaker based on a -10 dB master volume from the pedal. That gives me room for 20 dB down and 10 dB up from "unity" on the pedal.

I'm very pleased with this little combination. It's portable, lightweight, loud, very clear, has plenty bass, includes a kick stand and pole mount, and includes all the effects I can use from the TC pedal. The speaker is not a stand alone solution, but coupled with the TC Play Acoustic for preamp and mixing it can easily fill a room of 50 respectful people. The speaker must also be set for the QSC K Series DPS emulation to get a balanced tone. The pedal also works great with the JBL Eon One.

The QSC TouchMix 8 is excellent, and will be reserved for gigs that require more inputs, or if I want to get a good recording.

In summary, for me, there is no single plug and play product. But, I think these combinations will get the job done for me, for now:

Solo / Small room / up to 50 (quiet) people
Guitar with ES2 or Trance Amulet
Sennheiser e935 mic
TC Play Acoustic Pedal
Mackie DLM8 (behind me on floor or pole)

Solo / Medium room / up to 50 (loud) or 75 (quiet) people
Guitar with ES2 or Trance Amulet
Sennheiser e935 mic
TC Play Acoustic Pedal
LBL Eon One (moderate volume behind me)

Solo or Duo / Medium room / up to 75 (loud) or 100 quiet people
Guitar with ES2 or Trance Amulet
Sennheiser e935 mic
TC Play Acoustic Pedal (optional)
QSC TouchMix 8 (to drive extra channels and aux)
LBL Eon One (high volume in front of me)
Mackie DLM8 monitor

Gigs with a house sound person
Guitar with ES2 or Trance Amulet
New Zoom AC-2 (enhanced DI box)
Friendly and flexible attitude

Any more people than Bout 100 people and I'd need a second JBL Eon One like OpenRoadMatt, or a full scale PA system.

[open-road-matt]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

Incidentally, I spent some time last night with my DLM8 and the TC Play Acoustic pedal. I was concerned because the Mackie has no master volume level (a key feature Matt requires), which would make quick changes from stage difficult. However, I forgot that the Play Acoustic pedal does under the mixer menu! So, I set the Mackie for plus 5 dB on both channels and did the guitar mic mixing in the pedal. I set the stage volume for the speaker based on a -10 dB master volume from the pedal. That gives me room for 20 dB down and 10 dB up from "unity" on the pedal.

I'm very pleased with this little combination. It's portable, lightweight, loud, very clear, has plenty bass, includes a kick stand and pole mount, and includes all the effects I can use from the TC pedal. The speaker is not a stand alone solution, but coupled with the TC Play Acoustic for preamp and mixing it can easily fill a room of 50 respectful people. The speaker must also be set for the QSC K Series DPS emulation to get a balanced tone. The pedal also works great with the JBL Eon One.

The QSC TouchMix 8 is excellent, and will be reserved for gigs that require more inputs, or if I want to get a good recording.

In summary, for me, there is no single plug and play product. But, I think these combinations will get the job done for me, for now:

Solo / Small room / up to 50 (quiet) people
Guitar with ES2 or Trance Amulet
Sennheiser e935 mic
TC Play Acoustic Pedal
Mackie DLM8 (behind me on floor or pole)

Solo / Medium room / up to 100 people
Guitar with ES2 or Trance Amulet
Sennheiser e935 mic
TC Play Acoustic Pedal
LBL Eon One (moderate volume behind me)

Solo or Duo / Medium room / up to 150 people
Guitar with ES2 or Trance Amulet
Sennheiser e935 mic
TC Play Acoustic Pedal (optional)
QSC TouchMix 8 (to drive extra channels and aux)
LBL Eon One (high volume in front of me)
Mackie DLM8 monitor

Hi Dave!
I really like the way you've broken this down based on room and audience size. Sounds like you have some really good solutions.

I might be better off with the Mackie DLM8 over the VoiceSolo.

I'm missing the first piece. The small quiet room. The VoiceSolo could maybe handle it just fine but I'll bet the Mackie sounds better.

I had a VoiceLive 3 for a little while and I tried to use it a few times as my main "control deck." I wasn't using for more than a mixer when I used it live. I concluded that it is just as easy for me to set up my TouchMix 8 so I sold the VoiceLive 3.

For me right now it would look like this:

Small room:
Guitar w/Trance Amulet
Audix OM-5
TC Helicon VoiceSolo FX150?

Medium Room:
Guitar w/Trance Amulet
Audix OM-5
TouchMix8
JBL Eon One
TC Helicon VoiceSolo FX150 as my monitor

Large Room:
Guitar w/Trance Amulet
Audix OM-5
TouchMix8
2 JBL Eon Ones
TC Helicon VoiceSolo FX150 as my monitor

That's a pretty flexible, versatile set up.

Another component I have is the DBX GoRack. I could go guitar and vocals into the VoiceSolo, line out to the GoRack and then go out to one or two Eon Ones. I'm not sure why I would do that over the TouchMix but I could.

Something else to consider with the TouchMix is that you can use Aux 3/4 to drive a set of in-ear monitors. I don't like using in-ears with the Eon One. The Eon One puts out enough "surround sound" that I just need a little spot monitor to crisp up the details. But the in-ears off the TouchMix is something to consider.

Matt

[martingitdave]

Awesome Matt! Frankly, I've taken a number of cues from you and Ken (SpruceTop). I mentioned to hotroad that I seldom play for more than 50 people. When I do, it's for festivals or benefits with house sound. So, I might only use the bigger setup a couple times a year. I edited my post to include my decision to buy a new DI box for house sound gigs. I've tried a few, but I'm super excited to order a new Zoom AC-2. It appears to have all the features I need and a very simple setup. The auto feedback buster would have been a life saver earlier this year.

Regarding the TouchMix 8 versus the Play Acoustic, I think you're right. However, I will (sheepishly) admit that I do a few songs where the harmony feature is fun for the chorus. The tuner/mute on the floor is handy. And, I think it's easier to let the Play Acoustic auto dial in the vocals because I'm still a novice with the TouchMix 8. The guitar sounds just as good through either. I bought the DBX goRack and have decided I don't want/need it. The mixer and the TC Play Acoustic have sufficient DSP and preamp power. It's not small enough, or convenient enough to take the place of either.

That said, I don't think I'd enjoy setting up both the pedal and a mixer, so in that case, it would be mixer only. I briefly looked at the VL3 Extreme. My concern was the complexity - the demos gave me a headache.

Last note is that my setup probably works because I don't loop.

Matt and Ken, thanks for sharing all your gear experience with the group at large!

[ricdoug]

Originally Posted by hotroad

I think the Daedalus speakers are the highest form of sound we know. Add a good amp and effects with all the ins and outs and you got it. But now we are up to $2500 or more easily.

I've never played through a Carvin or Genz Benz that did not have far superior sonnd to a Daedelus ever. Ric

[Cuki79]

Just dreamin

you could still add a 360° feature to you AER modded compact 60 by adding a
removable reflector like on the BenkCube Natural one


Then your compact 60 could be used
1) as a monitor
2) as loudspeaker on pole
3) as 360° linearray style spread on a pole.

lol, not sure the little double cone Ciare loudspeaker can be used on upfire position, would be fun.

[Paultergeist]

Originally Posted by ricdoug

I've never played through a Carvin or Genz Benz that did not have far superior sonnd to a Daedelus ever. Ric

Wow, Ric, that IS an interesting viewpoint. I have never heard a Daedelus speaker; in fact, I have never even seen a Daedelus speaker in person. I do hear/read others report good things about the speakers, but then again, virtually all equipment has some likeable qualities. I do think it is easy to get lulled into the assumption, however, that because something is very expensive it must also be very *good* proportional to that expense. Many of us tend to psychologically rationalize the subjective qualities of an expensive item based on the cost (i.e. That $5K guitar simply must sound better than the $1500 guitar).

I realize that I had allowed myself to simply assume that these Daedelus speakers were inarguably the gold standard. I am sure that that they are quite good, and I know that many swear by them. Your comment, however, makes me re-consider my own assumptions, and reminds me that "best" can be a very subjective assessment.

Thanks for sharing a fresh perspective.

[ricdoug]

My friends Jon and Karen Bart the owners of:

https://www.quietvoiceaudio.com/

...have dealt with Daedelus in the past and love the sound. Sound has been their life long business. They are still successful with it, among many competetiive businesses. My ear likes Carvin and Genz Benz better. Sound is very subjective. As a performing artist and FOH sound engineer, I try to get the best out of what I'm controlling, even if it's a PowerWerks PW50/Kustom PA50. If the artists don't like your sound art, they don't employ you. I will never again run sound for Molly Hatchet (one time only 4 decades ago at the Orange Pavilion in Pomona, as their stage volume was so loud everything bleed through the vocal microphones out of control and they would never employ me again, either. On the flip side, I enjoy their recordings. One has to be OCD to run sound. It's an essential trait for success. If you ever get a chance to listen to a Vue AudioTechnik setup (Mike Adams, Jimmy Buffet's FOH road and recording sound engineer for 5 decades), nothing will compare.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Paultergeist

Wow, Ric, that IS an interesting viewpoint. I have never heard a Daedelus speaker; in fact, I have never even seen a Daedelus speaker in person. I do hear/read others report good things about the speakers, but then again, virtually all equipment has some likeable qualities. I do think it is easy to get lulled into the assumption, however, that because something is very expensive it must also be very *good* proportional to that expense. Many of us tend to psychologically rationalize the subjective qualities of an expensive item based on the cost (i.e. That $5K guitar simply must sound better than the $1500 guitar).

I realize that I had allowed myself to simply assume that these Daedelus speakers were inarguably the gold standard. I am sure that that they are quite good, and I know that many swear by them. Your comment, however, makes me re-consider my own assumptions, and reminds me that "best" can be a very subjective assessment.

Thanks for sharing a fresh perspective.

One should remember (as I'm sure you are aware) not to confuse the totally subjective opinion of specific individual/s as actually being an objective measure of factual qualification as to sound quality . While I do not own Daedalus I have heard them, and to my ears the reputation is well deserved. But that is something each must determine for themselves. And while of course making assumptions based only on reputation hold the possibility of not being accurate, the other side of that coin is generally the quality of sound comes before the " reputation" develops . Not to mention the notion that usually you get what you pay for, exists because it usually true , and perhaps not always, but far more often than not, the $5k guitar will sound better to you, when you play it.

[hotroad]

I appreciate the candid remarks and reviews here on Daedalus and other gear. Its very helpful to me. Always liking to hear other's input and I take it as just that, another item to add into the mixing bowl. Thanks.

[ricdoug]

Hotroad, when shopping any sound gear, it helps to have a friend with a good ear for music. It's even better if they are a musician that can play your instrument while you listen from varying distances and angles. A good/great sound/mix is highly subjective as you will see in replies here and in other discussions. Ric

[Guitars44me]

I just read this entire! Thread...

My two cents. I am a retro one man band. Guitar, slide, harps in the rack, vocals, and foot percussion.

I am a couple days shy of 66 and HATE lugging and setting up gear after a lifetime of full time music!

My solution to most if not all of the above concerns is small, light, versatile and amazingly fat sounding.

I use an Acoustic Image Coda R series III amp. Two combo XlR/1/4" channels and two 1/4" line returns that can be used as inputs but lack tone controls. The newer series IIII has a removable amp/controls!

Weighs 20 lbs. 400W class D amp. Will power an extension speaker. Secret weapon is a 10" downfiring woofer, which was originally designed for upright bass! Makes my kick box sound a lot like a bass drum when I use one channel's Tone controls and roll off highs and most mids.

Has a built in tilt, but not enough to get it past Matt's waist... but I play seated to free up my feet, as I was a drummer for many lifetimes!

I put this amazing little box of tone on a small roller cart to my left, where I can reach the tone controls fairly easily. The cart uncouples it from the floor/stage and the kick box and eliminates feedback pretty well. If it starts to feed I just roll it away a foot or two... and aim it away a bit if necessary.

I can use any decent medium speaker on a stand for larger rooms, and the internal amp will power that. It also has a line out so I can add any powered speakers necessary to fill even larger rooms, which I try to avoid! Haha

The AI will also function well as a monitor/mixer if placed in front of the performer but needs to be decoupled from the stage. I have used a small sub lift with foam feet for this. Unfortunately the kick box will need to be turned down or off...

Another nice secret weapon is the TC Helicon Harmony G XT. Which I place on the kick box. Allows a great sounding sub mix of vocals and guitar which frees up one channel on the AI. It also allows a separate guitar 1/4" line out if wanted. I think it makes everything I have ever plugged into it sound a bit better. Voodoo in a box. I keep the efx and harmonies turned way down most of the time. And I use the harmony feature sparingly, but it works great for sing alongs. I find the mic input needs to be under 10 o'clock to avoid spikes from my EV N/D 767a mic, which runs HOT.

Obviously this would not work for a band, but I have used it for a duo with my Pal Tim Luranc Of R.Taylor fame. He has pretty good ears (!) and liked it a lot. I just skipped the kick box.

I have had 3 AI combos and find they do the job for me. I like FAT, warm tone and these can deliver that in spades. The ability to get more speakers up and away is a BIG help in big or oddly shaped venues. I would love one more combo input, but what the heck...

Play on AGF and have fun making music!!!

Cheers

Paul