Lack of truss rod. Anybody have issues with this?

thaichine · #1 11-01-2016, 07:00 PM

So today I was able to try a Blackbird Super OM for the first time. I liked it quite a bit, but was a little concerned about the lack of a truss rod, because there was a little more relief than I usually like. Ideally I would have flattened the neck just a bit. Has anyone ever had any problems with their truss-rod free carbon fiber guitars? Should I be concerned about the lack of one? I am interested in the Lucky 13 but can't find one locally to try, and am scared to buy one sight unseen!

Earl49 · #2 11-01-2016, 07:29 PM

None of our CF guitars have truss rods - WS-1000N1, Peavey CA Cargo, or the new Lucky 13. I don't worry. If it is right to start with, it won't ever move. If it is wrong it likely cannot be fixed. You will likely hear some other opinions....

I ordered my Lucky built for medium gauge strings because I use those mostly, and do lots of lowered / altered tunings. That means it was set up for mediums and has a little extra neck reinforcement, to be sure. The neck relief as it arrived is perfect.

Blackbird has a trial period, but gets almost no returns. They won't ship in the first place if there are issues.

steelvibe · #3 11-01-2016, 08:18 PM

CF guitars do not need truss rods. However, I absolutely love and need low action for my style of play. You can achieve that type of action much more effectively at the saddle than at the truss rod, so as long as there is plenty of saddle to work your way down to where you need it you should be fine.

Having said that, there are not a whole lot of CF guitars to try, and when I bought my Rainsong I just didn't feel right taking my chances on a guitar without a truss rod. I've severely reduced the action on my Shorty from how it shipped to me and now plays like an electric and I like the NS neck even more with the set action and low tension strings.

JerryM · #4 11-01-2016, 08:34 PM

True, you don't need one at all, but for me on my L13 the Only adjustment was the saddle and I would have loved to had it for a little adjustment when I was doing the setup as it had a little too much relief i thought, and you have no way to take out a buzz etc. other than fret leveling, etc. JMO I like the flexibility that the RS new allows....

thaichine · #5 11-01-2016, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerryM

True, you don't need one at all, but for me on my L13 the Only adjustment was the saddle and I would have loved to had it for a little adjustment when I was doing the setup as it had a little too much relief i thought, and you have no way to take out a buzz etc. other than fret leveling, etc. JMO I like the flexibility that the RS new allows....

This is exactly what I'm afraid of, if the relief is too much, and not much saddle is showing, then you are stuck with high action.
I like low action, so i guess I will have to wait until I can try a lucky 13 in person. The Super OM I tried today did not have much saddle showing, I think it would have been difficult to get the action as low as I like.

AZLiberty · #6 11-01-2016, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaichine

Has anyone ever had any problems with their truss-rod free carbon fiber guitars?

Yes. My Rainsong WS3000 has too much relief when tuned to concert. No truss rod so I can't adjust it. I have settled for leaving it tuned down a full step.

sirwhale · #7 11-02-2016, 12:48 AM

Yes, the problem is only if you buy one with a relief that you don't like. You have to be happy with the relief or don't buy it.

When I bought mine I didn't know as much as I do now about the structure of guitars. My relief is low and I use 12-52s. It works for me fine but if you've followed my other thread I had a buzz on the D string (other strings were fine). With no way to adjust the relief I have sent it off to have all the frets leveled (they were pretty much all level anyway, must have been a slight difference high up the neck - hopefully I'm still waiting for it to be returned). With another guitar I may have been tempted to raise the relief slightly but I have been forced to address the issue straight on (pros & cons depending on your perspective).

This page convinced me that low relief is best (well for me anyway): http://www.bryankimsey.com/setup/neck_relief_1.htm

If you know what you want, and you know the strings you will use etc, then find one with the relief you want (directly from Blackbird? Ask Ted?).

But when the relief is good, my neck doesn't move and I love the hassle free changing of strings, tunings, humidity, never out of tune...

RickSpreitzer · #8 11-06-2016, 11:10 AM

I was an artist endorser for the pre-Peavey Composite Acoustics company and still own and gig with my Performer GX. Never had a guitar with better intonation. The relief is perfect. I can literally capo at the 12th fret and play this thing without adjusting the tuning. Crazy good intonation.

I agree with previous poster. If it doesn't suit you to begin with, I don't know there is much you can do about it.

I've added bone saddles, changed the nut slots. If the relief is close to what works for you (and I check this by the capo test... capo the guitar at the 7-9th fret and see how the intonation is there) then you got a guitar you can work with.

codecontra · #9 11-06-2016, 02:33 PM

My Emerald X20 has a truss rod.

Steve Christens · #10 11-06-2016, 05:05 PM

My CA GX (without truss rod) has about 0.010" of relief, which works fine for me. But if you wanted less, you are out of luck. My Emerald X7 is one of the older ones also without a truss rod, and again it is fine. But if I had it to do over I would prefer to have one of the newer models with truss rod.

mikealpine · #11 11-08-2016, 07:45 AM

I tried a CA without a truss rod and returned it. Action too high, not sure it could have been lowered. Bought a Rainsong, sounds awesome (compliments on looks and sound all the time), and it has a truss rod. I had it set to my preferences, and it hasn't moved. May never need to adjust it again, but if it wasn't there to begin with, I don't think I'd have been happy at all. So, even if just for an initial setup, for me, a truss rod is essential.

Earl49 · #12 11-08-2016, 03:36 PM

I played my new Lucky 13 - no truss rod - extensively over the weekend. Using medium strings, tunings played varied from standard E-e down to CFCFCE and CFCFAC (open F) plus several others in between. I even played out in the sun and let the guitar warm up, but never too hot to touch the top.

I could not see that the neck relief changed at all over this range. Of course, the relief and set up is perfect to start with.

steelvibe · #13 11-09-2016, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikealpine

I tried a CA without a truss rod and returned it. Action too high, not sure it could have been lowered. Bought a Rainsong, sounds awesome (compliments on looks and sound all the time), and it has a truss rod. I had it set to my preferences, and it hasn't moved. May never need to adjust it again, but if it wasn't there to begin with, I don't think I'd have been happy at all. So, even if just for an initial setup, for me, a truss rod is essential.

I agree with your statement Mike. The action on my Shorty was very high when I got it and the first Shorty I tried at a different shop was even worse. Once I got the saddle sanded down (which is crazy low) and adjusted the truss just right, I have an acoustic that nearly plays like an electric. This has been especially true with low tension, light strings. Once I got used to the NS neck I have actually fallen in love with it and find that I prefer all other acoustics that I play that have a more similar profile than different.

Guilds and some Martins have filled that void for me.

Emerald Guitars · #14 11-09-2016, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codecontra

My Emerald X20 has a truss rod.

Hi taichine,

codecontra kindly mentioned his X20. All our guitars, with the exception of the Amicus and the Synergy Uke, have double action truss rods.

The carbon fibre neck design makes a very strong and stable neck and many feel this means a truss rod is not required. It is true that structurally there is no need for a truss rod, but it is our opinion that its addition gives an extra degree of adjustability allowing for fine adjustments to neck relief which helps get to your perfect setup and helps set the neck relief to match the optimal for various string gauges.

We hope you find this helpful.

Kind Regards,

Sean

Strumalot · #15 11-09-2016, 07:53 AM

Sean, I would be interested to know if having a truss rod requires that the guitar have a heel? My CA GX does not have a truss rod (plays perfect) and the area where the neck joins the body is smooth and clear. To me trading that playability benefit for a future neck adjustment that likely won't be needed is an unworthy trade off.

Just curious what your thoughts may be on that.

The X10, by the way, would nearly perfect in my opinion if it had a "CA like" neck and join at the body.