Question for BUILDERS: Non production guitars

scottcw · #1 10-03-2013, 11:28 AM

About 10 years ago I was in the market for a new electric, called a luthier friend and he mentioned that he had just finished up a new guitar with some "experiments" in scale length and bridge material. Turned out to be just what I was after.

So for the builders here... how often do you make guitars to experiment? what do you do with them? put them up for sale on your website? send them to dealers? take them to shows?

I think it would be great to hear about these types of guitars so prospective buyers might find something they otherwise would not know about.

Running Dog · #2 10-03-2013, 12:12 PM

I used to schedule one guitar in ten as "mine" -- meaning that I could do whatever I liked with it. I might inlay a favorite image, or try out some new technique, or make a significant design change. Or it could be just a guitar that represented my taste and style instead of my customer's.

I would never try to sell an experiment until I was satisfied that it worked as intended and did not compromise structure or durability. Even changing sources for purchased pieces (truss rods, e.g.) would cause me to make one of "my" guitars to be sure that all was well with the new item.

And, yes, if I was satisfied with the results, I'd take the instrument to a show where lots of people could play it and give me feedback. Shows are the ultimate test; as a builder, I feel like it's me on display as much as the guitars.

mikealpine · #3 10-03-2013, 12:12 PM

Good question! Wonder if this belongs in the Custom area. It would certainly get more traffic from the builders.

scottcw · #4 10-03-2013, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikealpine

Good question! Wonder if this belongs in the Custom area. It would certainly get more traffic from the builders.

Good point. Mods - feel free to move if appropriate.

scottcw · #5 10-04-2013, 02:23 PM

Any more feedback from luthiers?

Bruce Sexauer · #6 10-04-2013, 07:00 PM

I try to make at least one guitar out of five "on spec". Since I imagine myself an artist in my approach to our craft, I think of this as how I maintain my artistic integrity. As business has slowed the last few years I have been making more like one in three on spec, and I have more guitars in inventory than at any other point in my career. I am guitar rich! They can for the most part be located by looking for the color red on thelist, which is a page in my site that lists nearly every musical instrument I've made and its owner of record, plus more. A slightly more sales oriented view of a few of them is on my "inventory" page.

scottcw · #7 10-04-2013, 09:45 PM

Very helpful, thanks.

harvl · #8 10-05-2013, 12:31 AM

I like to experiment a lot so I build quite a few on spec. they usually hang on my wall until a show or until someone stops by, sometimes they end up in stores. What I really like doing is building a guitar on order and maybe one or 2 similar but with changes in things I want to see the effects of (like wood combos, bracing patterns etc.) Sometimes I even do crazy things like put hinges in them

Harv

racman · #9 10-05-2013, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harvl

Sometimes I even do crazy things like put hinges in them

Harv

Wow ... Is that to "open" up the soundboard or tone Harv?

CoolerKing · #10 10-05-2013, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

I try to make at least one guitar out of five "on spec". Since I imagine myself an artist in my approach to our craft, I think of this as how I maintain my artistic integrity. As business has slowed the last few years I have been making more like one in three on spec, and I have more guitars in inventory than at any other point in my career. I am guitar rich! They can for the most part be located by looking for the color red on thelist, which is a page in my site that lists nearly every musical instrument I've made and its owner of record, plus more. A slightly more sales oriented view of a few of them is on my "inventory" page.

Having a list like you do is very wise. It also helps potential buyers find them. FWIW, I've really admired the fan fret that is at Gruhns. Beautiful work.

Bruce Sexauer · #11 10-05-2013, 09:36 AM

I originally started TheList as a customer service, so that people who had my work could find information such as when it was made or what it was made from. It has turned out to be a handy way to navigate my site which has around 400 pages in it! I started my site in the 90's after reading "HTML for Dummy's", and have rarely taken anything out of it while adding to it on a nearly daily basis.

KevinLPederson · #12 10-05-2013, 12:16 PM

I am primarily a custom builder, so I may be doing this every single guitar. You'd be surprised at how much knowledge of tone shaping you can gain working on guitars from solid bodies to arch tops to acoustics.

If it weren't for my beginnings with electrics, I would have never had the vision to come up with my adjustable acoustic saddles. I use these same saddles on my Drea Armani and J2 arch tops. I machine them out of bone for the unique bone tone, yet they can be adjusted for fine tuned intonation adjustments.

It definitely expanded my mind, and the guitars possibilities, to be exposed to all of these genre's/style of building. Its also honed my skill set.

Its also opened up 'model ideas'. For instance, I'm working on an "organic acoustic/electric" guitar. Being a "church player', the acoustic is prominant, whether strummed or fingerpicked - for the rhythm, but there are times where I could play electric style leads. There are many many examples of this guitar from others, and could probably be its own thread. Its basically an a solo acoustic guitar that you can play electric leads on. My idea is to achieve this organically, not necessarily with electronics - like the Taylor stuff - which leaves the "acoustic" side more clean electric toned. To put all the elements together to make this happen I'll be drawing from the wide range of these genre's.

Its a smorgasbord of ideas, in an organic manner, attempting to make the acoustic guitar tone play and sound like a smaller body acoustic, yet have an electric feel to the lead style playing. Every aspect of design, down to the strings, has to be considered. its fun.

I'll have a build thread of this model.

Kevin.

Alan Carruth · #13 10-06-2013, 04:44 PM

When I have an acoustic idea I want to try out, I will usually go one of two ways: make a 'test mule', or an 'R&D Special'. Examples of 'test mules' would be the three guitars I've made (so far) to check out aspects of the way 'ports' work. These are as simplified as I can make them without cutting corners in terms of sound. The whole point is for them to sound like one of my 'good' guitars, so that I can get a fairly accurate idea of what will happen if I do something on one. OTOH, there's no point in putting in a rosette, or putting on bindings, or even finish. Those things do affect the tone, of course, but they take a lot of time, and get in the way of experiments. On these guitars I can chop them up however I want, and get readings, both objective and subjective, of what happens. This is not a perfect approach. For one thing, people 'listen with their eyes' a lot, and tend to feel guitars that aren't pretty don't sound as good. All of these instruments improve a lot when you're blindfolded!

'Test mules' are for cutting up, and for when I don't have a very good idea of what's going to happen. If I'm more sure of myself (rightly or wrongly), or the thing that I want to try requires more work, I'll try to make an 'R&D Special'. This is a finished instrument that I build for a particular buyer. We agree up front on two things: the buyer will accept the instrument, no matter how it turns out, but only pays half price for it. Again, I only make these when I'm pretty sure it's going to work, and do everything I can to produce something that's as good as anything I've made.

A good example of this was my third arch top Classical guitar. I'd made two that were less than successful as Classicals, in the sense that they did not have a timbre that made them useful for the standard repertoire. A lot of experiments, reading, and thought, convinced me that I knew where the problems were, but I didn't want to invest the time in another 'on spec'.

A customer sent me a deposit on a Classical, at a time when I was rather busy, and said that we could get together when I was ready to start to work out the details. When the time came, he simply asked me what I'd like to build. I explained my thinking on the arch top Classical, and told him I'd like to try one as an R&D guitar. Since he did not expect the arched top, which normally costs more, I offered to make it for half the price of a normal flat top,and he accepted on that basis.

In the event the guitar came out very well. It has a timbre that's useful for the standard repertoire, but with it's own particular color, and is, as I'd hoped, more powerful. He got a good instrument at a very good price, and I learned what I wanted to learn.

As most makers do, I generally try out more 'usual' innovations on 'spec' instruments, if they're not too extreme. Some things, such as the 'recurve bevel' cutaway, I've used first on instruments for my steady customers, when it fit with what they wanted to do. Again, in those cases, it will be something that I've very confident I can pull off. My first 'test mule' was built when a new customer was interested in the idea of a 'port', and I wanted to work out the variables to some extent before hand.

One other reason for making crude test mules: I gave the first arch Classical to a friend, asking him to simply play it into the ground. A year or so later somebody who'd bought it at a shop called me about some aspect of it. I never intended that guitar for sale: for one thing, it had been pretty well 'modified' by the airlines at one point, and I didn't take the time to repair it well, since I never intended it to show up in public. Had I known I'd have simply sawed the thing in half and given my friend a wastebasket. None of my subsequent test mules could possibly be mistaken for a commercial instrument, and that's deliberate.

harvl · #14 10-06-2013, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by racman

Wow ... Is that to "open" up the soundboard or tone Harv?

The great thing about a hinge is it can be used to open as well as close...Or obviously... fold...

JHumphrey · #15 10-11-2013, 12:56 AM

My experience is similar to what Kevin described, even if someone is after a straightforward, more traditional guitar or bouzouki design, we will usually sort out the details and in the end it becomes a non-standard item.

I suppose I am lucky in this regard; my passion is in the creative design process. I offer standard models, but my work is so not production oriented. I have found that clients are more likely to be inspired by my unique and hybrid instruments (often designed in collaboration with the musician, or entirely by me, or even entirely by them, as in the case of Eric Ederer's Nautilauta) and to request an instrument that they have dreamed about.

For better or worse I end up with lots of prototype instruments, but I think it is just part of my process. I try to offer them for sale and bring them to shows etc. but sometime they are too weird for anyone to make sense of!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jbhwood...g/10202906606/