School me on archtop strings/electronics?

[corlay]

Hello.

I've been researching archtop guitars, trying out as many as I can get my hands on, and also looking for info on the web.

I have come to a few conclusions, about what my preferences might be in the guitar I choose, and was hoping more experienced players here could chime-in and either correct or verify my thinking, as well as answer a few basic questions I have?

1. Acoustic Sound
Archtops are going to typically sound/project better acoustically with bronze-wound strings, yes? But in using bronze-wounds, most pickups supplied with these types of guitars (humbuckers) won't operate very well, if at all?

2. Amplified sound
Are the floating humbucking type pickups appreciably better sounding on an archtop than a Piezo type pickup system (like the K&K Sound or Fishman products designed specifically for archtops)? I was thinking that if a player used an archtop mainly as an acoustic instrument, but wanted to have the flexibility to occasionally plug-in to amplification, a Piezo setup might be preferable, because it will work with bronze-wound strings? But I'm guessing that this is less common, because the sound from a piezo is typically not nearly as "fat" as from a humbucking/magnetic pickup. Is that correct? I do see some professional-grade/boutique instruments out there that are setup with *both* humbucking and piezo output jacks, maybe to allow for more versatility? So I'm guessing that a Piezo setup is utilized by at least some players, either stand-alone or combined/mixed with a humbucker?

[zabdart]

Archtop guitars are a whole different animal than flattops.
First of all, since the majority of archtops have maple back and sides, you're going to get a snappier, clearer, more treble-oriented sound out of them. You're going to get more volume with a crisper sound with a quicker decay -- great for rhythm playing.
Because the sound is going to be clear and bright anyway, you might not want the extra brightness bronze or brass strings give you. They will not produce as much flux in the pickup's magnetic field when you plug your guitar in, so you will probably be better off using nickel wound strings. Just a suggestion.
For optimal performance on an archtop, a floating pickup, that is, one mounted to the pickguard or fretboard extension rather than the face of the guitar, is best.
Hope this helps.

[corlay]

Originally Posted by zabdart

First of all, since the majority of archtops have maple back and sides, you're going to get a snappier, clearer, more treble-oriented sound out of them..

Hello.

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I've sampled a bunch of maple B/S archtops and do find the tone to be much more trebley and snappier, but in doing this I've formed my own preferences toward a mahogany construction, which is much warmer in tone. Thus my intent to used bronze wound strings. I just happen to like the sound of that combination.

Although, at this point it's all conjecture, to a degree.
Until I get my own in hand, and start experimenting with strings, I'm not 100% positive that I'll stick with bronze, but just wanted to get info on what my amplification options would be if I did use bronze strings, is all.

[zabdart]

OK... first, you have to understand the difference in the way piezo vs. magnetic pickups operate. A piezo pickup is one mounted under the bridge saddle or to the bridge pad. It operates by the pressure of the vibrating string on quartz crystals creating a small amount of electric current, which is then amplified. Since archtop guitars have no bridge pads, that system is out.
Magnetic pickups, on the other hand, generate a magnetic field. The ferrous metal string vibrates in that magnetic field, causing flux, which creates a signal which travels down the guitar cord to the amplifier, where it gets amplified. So, you're dealing with the physics of electro-magnetism here, which is why bronze or brass strings are not your best choice.
Hope that helps.

[corlay]

Originally Posted by zabdart

Since archtop guitars have no bridge pads, that system is out.

In the web research Ive done, I've come across Piezo archtop solutions from both K&K and Fishman:

http://www.kksound.com/purearchtop.html
http://www.fishman.com/products/view...uitar-pickup-1

Plus a custom solution that a maker has devised using a Fishman 'rare earth' humbucking pickup:

http://kenparkerarchtops.com/kenparkerarchtot.html

[JCave]

I like that "Pure Acoustic." I've been playing my Kingpin more acoustically lately and really enjoy it. Instead of using a Fender amp I'm using a Fishman Mini. Now I'm wondering how much different an upgraded bridge might be.





Jerry

[jazzrat]

My .02 coming from a mostly electric player.
As noted above an archtop is a different acoustic animal.
You have to modify your expectations of the amount of bass you are used to hearing from a dreadnaught. That being said a very satisfying acoustic tone can be had. I've had several sold carved archtops. Most including a couple gorgeous Heritage guitars were really just electic guitars but with some "air" added to the tone. Unplugged they were only suited for couch practice.
Now, on the other hand a couple Eastman archtops I had could keep up with
a flattop in the volume department and cut through better with that typical
old archtop tone.
The main difference was build-in pickups vs. floaters on the Eastman guitars.

If I was buying one today I'd look for a floating pickup and a spruce top in a 17" or 18" size.

The Martin Taylor signature model by Yamaha looks nice and has a magnetic and piezo pickup system.

[corlay]

Originally Posted by jazzrat

Now, on the other hand a couple Eastman archtops I had could keep up with a flattop in the volume department and cut through better with that typical old archtop tone.

Yeah, after much speculation, I finally got my hands on a few Eastmans this past weekend and fell in love, after not being too thrilled with either the Godin 5th Ave (awfully thin sounding acoustically) or The Loar LH-300-VS (extreme "V" neck is just not my thing, but sounded nice, though).

[JCave]

Agreed, the 5th Ave Kingpin is thin acoustically hence the Fender amp. Playing it acoustically is ejoyable though. I'm holding off learning about a bridge upgrade until I'm closer to changing it. Good project for the upcoming rainy days....

[mr. beaumont]

Ah, fun and somewhat confusing world of archtops...I'll throw in my two cents, as I spend almost all of my guitar playing time playing one of the many variations of archtop out there...some of my points might be new, some might echo some of the good posts already in this thread.

Essentially you have a few different types...all solid wood with either no pickup or a floating pickup, all solid wood with a routed pickup/ pickups, Laminate with routed pickups, or all lam acoustic (or lam with a floter...not too common)

A solid wood archtop with no cutouts plugged with electronics is going to give you the best acoustic tone...mind you, it's still a very different tone than a flattop. You'll come across two different bracing patterns here, parallel, which gives you that classic midrange bark that's perfect for a big band rhythm section, or Xbraced, which offers a more subdued midrange and softer tone-- still obviously an archtop, but with some qualities more reminiscent of a flattop. Some solid wood archtops will have a floating pickup, meant to help preserve the acoustic tone...floters tend to sound much brighter than a set in humbucker...some folks like em, others dont.

Solid wood guitars with set in humbuckers might still offer some pleasant acoustic tone, but are really meant to be electric guitars. Solid wood routex humbucker guitars tend to sound a little brighter than a comparably equipped laminate guitar. They can have some feedback issues...some folks love to capture some of the acoustic tone along with tge electric tone when recording these guitars...but the biggest reason perhaps to want a solid wood electric guitar is the way they respond to your playing...notes really pop out, and you can feel them in your chest.

The laminate routed pickup archtop is not to be viewed as inferior, like many would view an all lam flattop. They make great electric jazzboxes, with a dark, burnished tone. Laminate archtops are less prone to feedback, but offer less in terms of pleasing tone unplugged.

Both solid archtops and lamjnate archtops offer tones embraced by plugged in jazzers-- the quick attack and decay is great for eighth note bop lines, and the lack of sustain and harmonics is excellent for compkex chords...Strum a G chord on an archtop, and you'll wonder what the fuss is...but comp a D713b9 and you'll say "ooohhhh!"

Lastly, odd man out is the laminate acoustic, or a lam box equipped with a floater (the latter category exists but doesn't make much sense) The lam acoustic archtop offers a boxy, dry, somewhat thin tone that actually works great in some applications, like old timey blues and slide guitar.

All of these categories are generalizations, and I have come across guitars in every category that break the stereotype.

[Archtop Guy]

My website has some info and clips on acoustic archtops, they're my main players.

I mostly use acoustic strings. Depending on the guitar I've used 80/20s, 85/15s or phosphor bronze. My old L-5's and Epi's seem to have a real affinity for GHS Vintage Bronze (85/15) mediums. I think those strings are similar to what was available.

My new x-braced archtops prefer lights, and are pretty tolerant of either 85/15 or phosphor bronze.

I use full acoustic strings quite a bit with a floating pickup. They will work, but the output of the G string will be weak compared to the E and B. I just back off my attack and no one notices. Works for me, YMMV. The amp'd sound is definitely a little more acoustic with this setup. OTOH, I like the GHS White Bronze string too. It has much better string balance but you lose a little of the acoustic zing. I do not use straight electric strings on my guitars, it would be a waste of a good acoustic archtop, but if you have something like a 175 it would be the way to go.

I have done a lot of experimenting with acoustic pickups, including K&K, Pick-Up-the-World, and McIntryre. I have McIntyre's in two of my guitars now but to tell the truth I don't use them very often. I much prefer a microphone and for my style of playing that works out fine.

[zabdart]

Wish I had an L-5.

[JCave]

Originally Posted by zabdart

Wish I had an L-5.

Indeed. An L-5 was responsible for me buying an archtop.

[hello people]

I'll take you to school corlay