Multi-effects and modeling help!

[martingitdave]

I received the Mackie DLM8 speaker this evening. I found one mint/used with a bag for 50% off. I had about 5 min to fire it up and test it with the Variax and Firehawk. It sounds a lot more realistic than it does through the JBL. It sounds very good with the acoustic and Mic.

So, if I can find a decent small modeling pedal, I'll have a very nice little squat full range 8" Cab. The bass it produces is surprising.

It should serve dual purpose and work for acoustic gigs where the JBL is overkill.


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[Glennwillow]

Dave,

I am no expert at electric guitar stuff -- there are so many choices and so much of it sounds really good. For my studio I use a POD-XT rack mount unit through my PA system and it sounds really, really good after all these years. For recording I use Guitar Rig.

I do have a Fender 4x10 Blues Deville, which is essentially a Fender Bassman with an extra preamp tube. The amp sounds good, but it's incredibly loud. Also, I found that I am really not a big fan of the distortion that comes out of this amp when using the added preamp tube. What I like best is the sound of good pedals on the front end of this amp.

I have been using a Roland Boss ME70 that cost $300. Today's version is the ME80: http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-BOS-ME80 It has several modeled amps that sound quite good to me. This fairly simple unit has everything I need. I have a pile of pedals from the past, but dealing with all that mess and house keeping is just a pain. So the ME70 just combines the stuff I need and it sounds perfectly acceptable to me.

To keep it really simple, just using the Blues Deville with the Boss Blues Driver and a Boss tremolo pedal also pretty much gets me what I need, though occasionally I want a chorus effect or a digital delay, and then I may as well use the ME70, which has all that stuff plus a half dozen modeled amps in it.

Best of luck to you!

- Glenn

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

Last year I decided I would get back into electric guitar after a 25 year hiatus. The impetus was a charity band that I joined and will be playing with. It was a bit dizzying when I looked at all the options today...

For reference, when I was in a band, all I ever had was a MIJ Stratocaster and a Peavey Bandit 112 amp. I didn't have any pedals. It was fine...

Same grab-&-go rig (alternating with a Yamaha SSC-500 solid) that carried me through the '80s-90s: just guitar-cable-amp, more than enough volume for any gig I was likely to play, doubled as an acoustic amp before there was such a thing (actually made my single-knob Ovation Custom Balladeer sound like a loud acoustic guitar), and it all fit neatly in the back of a Ford Escort...

Sometimes less really is more...

Originally Posted by Cuki79

My cousin had the same problem. He bought the Bugera. The Bugera blew up after a few weeks...

Originally Posted by martingitdave

I will consider this good news/bad news. First, it would seem to me that I am in good company by considering that amp. Second, it blows up. Which, truth told, is par for the course for me.

I did not come up with the idea myself. Steve DeRosa, on our forum, is recommending them to tube amp neophytes. Some folks have had good luck. Did he plug it into the wrong voltage that you Europeans stubbornly refuse to change?

Sorry about your cousin's amp, Cuki - just a couple questions:

• As Dave suggests, if the voltage is incorrectly set for your local A.C. you're going to blow up your amp, your TV, your microwave, your refrigerator - did anyone check this before plugging in?
• Was this a brand-new, warranteed, in-the-box amp when it was purchased, or was it used, NOS, or a floor model that had been hanging around for a few years? FYI the very early-production Bugeras (especially the V22/V55) had some major QC issues - fan though I am I'd never recommend buying a used one, especially one made before 2010 - and just as with a used car you may very well have inherited someone else's pain-in-the-arse, which leads me to:
• Did the amp still have the original tubes when you bought it and, if not, were the replacement tubes properly biased? IME I can't emphasize enough the importance of proper power-tube biasing for any amp (FYI you can blow up a Fender/Marshall/Vox just as easily if everything's not set correctly) and the fact that they're shipped from the factory with $1.29 bargain-basement tubes is itself an invitation to disaster; FWIW the tech who helped me get my V22 up-and-running (a hard-core tube junkie with 30+ years' experience) was surprised at just how stable and well-designed the circuit really was - and we're talking a first-gen "blue-light" model here. Just for the record, I stand 100% behind my recommendation of the Bugera V-Series amps for relative beginners who want to get into tube tone - enough so that I bought one of the new V5 Infinium models at the GC Washington's Birthday coupon sale; by the same token, just as nearly all of us change the strings as soon as we get a new guitar I'd advise changing the tubes as soon as possible - the self-biasing/self-monitoring Infinium circuitry makes it a plug-&-play deal, and the tonal improvement can be dramatic...

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

Dave,

I am no expert at electric guitar stuff -- there are so many choices and so much of it sounds really good. For my studio I use a POD-XT rack mount unit through my PA system and it sounds really, really good after all these years. For recording I use Guitar Rig.

I do have a Fender 4x10 Blues Deville, which is essentially a Fender Bassman with an extra preamp tube. The amp sounds good, but it's incredibly loud. Also, I found that I am really not a big fan of the distortion that comes out of this amp when using the added preamp tube. What I like best is the sound of good pedals on the front end of this amp.

I have been using a Roland Boss ME70 that cost $300. Today's version is the ME80: http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-BOS-ME80 It has several modeled amps that sound quite good to me. This fairly simple unit has everything I need. I have a pile of pedals from the past, but dealing with all that mess and house keeping is just a pain. So the ME70 just combines the stuff I need and it sounds perfectly acceptable to me.

To keep it really simple, just using the Blues Deville with the Boss Blues Driver and a Boss tremolo pedal also pretty much gets me what I need, though occasionally I want a chorus effect or a digital delay, and then I may as well use the ME70, which has all that stuff plus a half dozen modeled amps in it.

Best of luck to you!

- Glenn

Thanks Glen. I went over to guitar center on the way home to talk to the sales guy I know. I asked him about the pedal systems. Oddly enough, he recommended the ME80. He said the guys there all love the Line 6 pods, Helix and Firehawk, except for the size.

Thanks for contributing to the thread! My concern with the Fender amp is the same. It needs to be loud and that doesn't work for my practice space.


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[Glennwillow]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

Thanks Glen. I went over to guitar center on the way home to talk to the sales guy I know. I asked him about the pedal systems. Oddly enough, he recommended the ME80. He said the guys there all love the Line 6 pods, Helix and Firehawk, except for the size.

Thanks for contributing to the thread! My concern with the Fender amp is the same. It needs to be loud and that doesn't work for my practice space.


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Hi Dave,

I used to use a Roland Boss ME10 right into my PA equipment. It was just too much of a hassle to drag a separate guitar amp along, though I did it for a while. With the new modeling, I think all you need is a clean, powerful amp. A tube amp sounds good, but a really good PA system (solid state and good speakers) also sounds good. My PA sounds very good with my Line 6 POD-XT rack mount unit.

You might experiment with that.

- Glenn

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

Hi Dave,

I used to use a Roland Boss ME10 right into my PA equipment. It was just too much of a hassle to drag a separate guitar amp along, though I did it for a while. With the new modeling, I think all you need is a clean, powerful amp. A tube amp sounds good, but a really good PA system (solid state and good speakers) also sounds good. My PA sounds very good with my Line 6 POD-XT rack mount unit.

You might experiment with that.

- Glenn

Excellent! Thanks again.


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[Cuki79]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

• As Dave suggests, if the voltage is incorrectly set for your local A.C. you're going to blow up your amp, your TV, your microwave, your refrigerator - did anyone check this before plugging in?
• Was this a brand-new, warranteed, in-the-box amp when it was purchased, or was it used, NOS, or a floor model that had been hanging around for a few years? FYI the very early-production Bugeras (especially the V22/V55) had some major QC issues - fan though I am I'd never recommend buying a used one, especially one made before 2010 - and just as with a used car you may very well have inherited someone else's pain-in-the-arse, which leads me to:
• Did the amp still have the original tubes when you bought it and, if not, were the replacement tubes properly biased? IME I can't emphasize enough the importance of proper power-tube biasing for any amp (FYI you can blow up a Fender/Marshall/Vox just as easily if everything's not set correctly) and the fact that they're shipped from the factory with $1.29 bargain-basement tubes is itself an invitation to disaster; FWIW the tech who helped me get my V22 up-and-running (a hard-core tube junkie with 30+ years' experience) was surprised at just how stable and well-designed the circuit really was - and we're talking a first-gen "blue-light" model here. Just for the record, I stand 100% behind my recommendation of the Bugera V-Series amps for relative beginners who want to get into tube tone - enough so that I bought one of the new V5 Infinium models at the GC Washington's Birthday coupon sale; by the same token, just as nearly all of us change the strings as soon as we get a new guitar I'd advise changing the tubes as soon as possible - the self-biasing/self-monitoring Infinium circuitry makes it a plug-&-play deal, and the tonal improvement can be dramatic...

He used it at home where the electricity was I believe correct. Nothing else blew. The Deluxe Reverb never blew.

The amp was brand new. My cousin almost never buys anything second-hand. We works for a big NASDAQ company and can afford new gear.
I think he bought it 4 years ago so it was post 2010 and I am sure he did not touch the bias since he knows nothing about electronic. I did not say Bugera is bad... I had a bad rattling noise on my Deluxe Reverb vibrato, I've sent it to Fender and they returned it saying it was normal!

But if you can afford a nice tube amp and a nice guitar, I think it's worth in terms of feel.

There was a nice number of Guitarist magazine when they did amp shootout. The conclusion is that modern modelling amps (with FRFR speakers+amplification) can fool anyone from the audience point of view... The playing feel is however somewhat different.

I think it's the same with Fishman Aura. Jason Isbell said, he can't hear the difference between an external mic and the Aura. It's probably true from the public point of view.

MartinGitdave, be sure to test every brand before buying, there is a huge offering as far as modelling is concerned: from pedal, pod desktop to cellphone app.

Note that nowdays, I barely use my tube amp because it's too loud for the kids... So I happely use a modelling amp because you can turn the volume down and still get good sound.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

He used it at home where the electricity was I believe correct. Nothing else blew. The Deluxe Reverb never blew.



The amp was brand new. My cousin almost never buys anything second-hand. We works for a big NASDAQ company and can afford new gear.

I think he bought it 4 years ago so it was post 2010 and I am sure he did not touch the bias since he knows nothing about electronic. I did not say Bugera is bad... I had a bad rattling noise on my Deluxe Reverb vibrato, I've sent it to Fender and they returned it saying it was normal!



But if you can afford a nice tube amp and a nice guitar, I think it's worth in terms of feel.



There was a nice number of Guitarist magazine when they did amp shootout. The conclusion is that modern modelling amps (with FRFR speakers+amplification) can fool anyone from the audience point of view... The playing feel is however somewhat different.



I think it's the same with Fishman Aura. Jason Isbell said, he can't hear the difference between an external mic and the Aura. It's probably true from the public point of view.



MartinGitdave, be sure to test every brand before buying, there is a huge offering as far as modelling is concerned: from pedal, pod desktop to cellphone app.



Note that nowdays, I barely use my tube amp because it's too loud for the kids... So I happely use a modelling amp because you can turn the volume down and still get good sound.

Thanks for the additional info.

Any recommendations on the compact modeling pedalboards?

I fear the tube amp would be unusable at home for the same reasons.


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[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

He used it at home where the electricity was I believe correct. Nothing else blew. The Deluxe Reverb never blew.

The amp was brand new. My cousin almost never buys anything second-hand. We works for a big NASDAQ company and can afford new gear.
I think he bought it 4 years ago so it was post 2010 and I am sure he did not touch the bias since he knows nothing about electronic. I did not say Bugera is bad... I had a bad rattling noise on my Deluxe Reverb vibrato, I've sent it to Fender and they returned it saying it was normal!

But if you can afford a nice tube amp and a nice guitar, I think it's worth in terms of feel.

There was a nice number of Guitarist magazine when they did amp shootout. The conclusion is that modern modelling amps (with FRFR speakers+amplification) can fool anyone from the audience point of view... The playing feel is however somewhat different.

I think it's the same with Fishman Aura. Jason Isbell said, he can't hear the difference between an external mic and the Aura. It's probably true from the public point of view.

MartinGitdave, be sure to test every brand before buying, there is a huge offering as far as modelling is concerned: from pedal, pod desktop to cellphone app.

Note that nowdays, I barely use my tube amp because it's too loud for the kids... So I happely use a modelling amp because you can turn the volume down and still get good sound.

Although I have only as of last fall, gotten back into electric guitar I have been involved in "critical listening" of music audio for 46 years

Lets see..... first there is no doubt that any manufactured product can have an issue. It does not matter what brand , the QC, the cost, or the reputation. AND it is also true that a single anecdotal experience does not a pattern make:
And manufactures of electronics evolve and brands often go through periods of problems that may not represent their current offerings.

I do agree that today's digital pro audio equip has taken "reasonable" sound plus convenience, to a new level.
And if convenience is a priority there is no reason not to take a serious look the "better" modeling amps available. BUT it is also true that there are many quote "modeling amps and software" that in fact not only do not sound like what they claim to be modeling, but sound pretty bad IMO.

So much so that after months of looking for a relatively inexpensive practice amp, and playing numerous modeling offerings I settled on a basic SS amp with only two channels a clean and overdriven with a digital reverb.

IMO and so far If I was actively gigging and did not want to haul a good tube amp the only guitar modeling amp that I might consider using would be the Kemper.

And far as what will "fool the audience" ? Personally I do not think that is the right question, the question is what does the player/artist want ?

And one needs to put "fooling the audience" in perspective.
The average non playing audience goer does not care if there is obvious piezo quack on an acoustic, let alone if a digital modeling amp sounds like a tube amp...... juss sayin' ....

Also I have yet to listen to an acoustic guitar pic up system that actually sounds like a good mic system. AND neither actually sounds like an acoustic played acoustically. While the better offerings get close and are totally viable for the other things they bring to the table, in my experience they do not completely replicate. And I do not really care what any individual artist might say. Particularly given the fact that being an artist is not a guarantee of nuanced critical listening skill or experience. So I would have to hear it for myself to be convinced otherwise

[Woodstock School Of Music]

If you're into the blackface sound check out a Fender Mustang V2 or better yet wait for the new Mustangs that are suppose to be out in May

[jim777]

You don't get much more compact than the new Boss GT-1, and it's under (barely ) $200 bucks. Where they skimped is in the ridiculous number of presets, not the quality of the sound.

[FrankHudson]

I was going to recommend the Fender Mustang amp, which does a reasonable Blackface sound and can do it at any volume level, but I read right you want the amp to double as an acoustic amp AND you already have a full-range PA speaker (the Mustang can take an acoustic with a clean setting and work that way, but it's not a full-range PA, though depending on needs, it might be good enough). I'm even guessing the PA speaker may carry your vocals in your practices, so it has to come along anyway. Did I get that right? One of the nice things about the Mustang is that once you have your presets all loaded up, you can just use the optional footpedals without need of a tablet or computer.

Even simpler is the Fender SuperChamp XD. Again nice lower volume blackface sounds, small and light to carry, and very simple to use without a computer. Not a full range PA either, but a cleaner blackface patch doesn't sound bad with an acoustic.

So I think your idea of using a smaller modeling pedal in front of the PA for the electric guitar in front of the PA may be the simple solution. I've never used them, but some folks like the SanAmp fly rig pedals, which have a smallish footprint, but none of them include a wah that I know of. There are still other choices in small footprint "Multieffects pedals" that include a wah treddle. Auditioning that class of thing at a store might find your solution.

The battery in your Variax should carry you through any gig if remember to charge it, and it doesn't drain (except for the tiny discharge it would get even sitting on a shelf over time) unless you are using the Variax pickup.

[martingitdave]

Thank you Frank and Jim. I'll check out your suggestions.


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[Cuki79]

Originally Posted by KevWind

IMO and so far If I was actively gigging and did not want to haul a good tube amp the only guitar modeling amp that I might consider using would be the Kemper.

And far as what will "fool the audience" ? Personally I do not think that is the right question, the question is what does the player/artist want ?

And one needs to put "fooling the audience" in perspective.
The average non playing audience goer does not care if there is obvious piezo quack on an acoustic, let alone if a digital modeling amp sounds like a tube amp...... juss sayin' ....

Also I have yet to listen to an acoustic guitar pic up system that actually sounds like a good mic system. AND neither actually sounds like an acoustic played acoustically. While the better offerings get close and are totally viable for the other things they bring to the table, in my experience they do not completely replicate.

Thanks Kerwind

I agree on the Kemper. I also agree for the "fooling the audience", it's definitely not a proper expression. What matters is the player's intention.

As far as "pick-up system that actually sounds like a good mic system." I've worked hard with Doug Young on my IR process to finally find that we did not manage to find the perfect "image" to his taste. There is always something missing. Finally we conclude that it's not very convenient to do that by email and that the player should be able to make his IR "live". That's why I can't wait to see Tondexter released to read Doug's review.

However in the end, the same problem will occur for impulse response than for Kemper.

Kemper models the sound of an amp "miced" and not the sound of the amp itself.

It's the same thing with digital correction on acoustic guitar pickup. But it's even worst because the nature of the sound dispersion that radiates from the top, the soundhole and to a lower extent from the strings is much more complex than the soundwave dispersion from a speaker cone. As a result, you'll never get a correct acoustic image if only the pickup and digital correction are taken into account.

However I am already happy if I can get a satisfying miced sound which I think I have with my last IR. Actually MartinGitdave helped me on this one by giving me his opinion from an external fresh ear

Cuki

[martingitdave]

Ok, my twin brother wants my Line 6 Firehawk FX. Like a good bro, I will give it to him. I purchased a Zoom G3X used for $100, based on very good reviews. Very small and economical. I'll have a month until I see him, so I can A/B them for fun.

Now I need to figure out what to plug it into. That's for another thread.


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