Basic Theory Question

[Normonster]

I'm learning some theory and I have a basic question (I'll probably learn the answer in the next few DVD lessons, but hey, this is what forums are for). I hope this is the right spot for these types of Qs.

If I determine the intervals of a chord progression (Where did you sleep last night, as an example: Em, A, G, B - root, P4, minor 3, P5) and simply play the same intervals from a different root chord, do I have the same song in a different key (starting from G, for example, and using those same intervals = G, C, A#, D)?

I'm sure this question has been posed a thousand times so apologies for the duplicate.

[rick-slo]

Not if you are using non diatonic notes inconsistently and you are switching from a minor to a major key (or vice versa).

Instead try:
Em, Am, G, Bm
Gm, Cm, Bb, Dm

[macmanmatty]

to answer what I think is your question yes are simply in a different key

If you played Gm C Bb D instead of Em A G B then yes your just in a different key now if you played G C Bb D as you stated you are now using a new chord progression and haven't simply changed keys.

But chords are not root P4 minor3 P5 in fact until I know what you key your in I cannot name these chords at all.

[Normonster]

Thank you guys for helping me open this can of worms.



@rick-slo
The definition of a diatonic note is a tough one to grasp. Goog says "Diatonic, in music, any stepwise arrangement of the seven “natural” pitches (scale degrees) forming an octave without altering the established pattern of a key or mode—in particular, the major and natural minor scales."

??

@macmanmatty
Why do we call it Bb instead of A#?
How is the key determined? The chord progression I believe is just E(not minor or major, just root 5th root), Ab2, G Major (I think), and B(just root, 5th, root).

It's this song, but my generic version, basically just so I can sing.

[Wyllys]

Originally Posted by Normonster

Thank you guys for helping me open this can of worms.



@rick-slo
The definition of a diatonic note is a tough one to grasp. Goog says "Diatonic, in music, any stepwise arrangement of the seven “natural” pitches (scale degrees) forming an octave without altering the established pattern of a key or mode—in particular, the major and natural minor scales."

??

@macmanmatty
Why do we call it Bb instead of A#?
How is the key determined? The chord progression I believe is just E(not minor or major, just root 5th root), Ab2, G Major (I think), and B(just root, 5th, root).

It's this song, but my generic version, basically just so I can sing.

I'd heartily recommend devoting your time to playing the tunes and saving all the analysis for later...years later. Play the music, not the theory.

[jomaynor]

Originally Posted by Wyllys

I'd heartily recommend devoting your time to playing the tunes and saving all the analysis for later...years later. Play the music, not the theory.

What an odd statement of discouragement to make to a learning musician - as if playing music and learning musical theory simultaneously were detrimental to a player's growth.


Ask away, Normonster: this section is for learning.

[Normonster]

Originally Posted by Wyllys

I'd heartily recommend devoting your time to playing the tunes and saving all the analysis for later...years later. Play the music, not the theory.

I hear you bro, and I have been. I'm nothing special, but I'm finally at that spot where I can play the cover material I want to play (now I'm trying to get better at singing and playing simultaneously). It's really nice, but it leads to a lot of questions.

The reality is that I have a lot of stranded material of my own that I need to expand on.

[Wyllys]

Originally Posted by jomaynor

What an odd statement of discouragement to make to a learning musician - as if playing music and learning musical theory simultaneously were detrimental to a player's growth.


Ask away, Normonster: this section is for learning.

I see no discouragement. I simply encourage in a different direction...

[LSemmens]

There are thirteen notes in a Chromatic scale which is useful to know if you wish to transpose a song to another key. To transpose Simply, I just use a slide rule type of arrangement where I write the entire Chromatic scale in one column starting at the root note of the original key, I then write in the next column the root note of target key next to it and proceed to write the chromatic scale from there

e.g. tranpose from C to G

C---G
C#-G#
D---A
D#-A#
E---B
F---C
F#-C#
G---D
G#-D#
A---E
A#-F
B---F#
C---G

Then all I need do is to read off the notes so if the progression is

C Csus4 Am F G the new progression would be

G Gsus4 Em C D you get the idea,

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Normonster

I'm learning some theory and I have a basic question (I'll probably learn the answer in the next few DVD lessons, but hey, this is what forums are for). I hope this is the right spot for these types of Qs.

If I determine the intervals of a chord progression (Where did you sleep last night, as an example: Em, A, G, B - root, P4, minor 3, P5) and simply play the same intervals from a different root chord, do I have the same song in a different key (starting from G, for example, and using those same intervals = G, C, A#, D)?

Yes, but you need to use the same chord types. That's what rick is saying, basically.
So, in your case, it would need to be Gm C Bb D.

And it needs to be Bb not A#, because a scale needs one of each note, and only one (as far as that's possible). That's an important and simple rule - so when it comes to notation every note in a scale has its own line or space. But how it applies here is not easy to see, unless you know something about scales and chord structure.

So, a Gm chord contains the notes G-Bb-D, not G-A#-D. That's because we count Root-3rd-5th in note letters - not just in half-steps. G to A# is a "2nd", and we need a "3rd". It's a "minor" chord, because its 3rds is "minor" which means a half-step less than major. G-B is a "major 3rd", G-Bb is a "minor 3rd". There is, of course, an A in between. (G minor scale = G A Bb C D Eb F. Eb, notice, not D#, because we already have a D, and need an E.)

As it happens, the notes G A# and D can exist in the same scale, but it's the B harmonic minor scale (B C# D E F# G A#). And that can't be the scale in question here, because it has a C#, not a C.

Don't worry if this is still confusing! You have the right idea about "transposing" a chord sequence to another key: you need the same intervals between the roots (which you've got), and you need to preserve the same chord type on each step (major or minor).

[Normonster]

Thank you guys so much. That makes a lot of sense.

This is really fun. I learned a long time ago when I was teaching myself, where all the notes were so that I could play any little ditty I came up with in any position, I just never took the next step in terms of the terminology or really, an understanding of the most basic theory. That got me a long way with some creativity added, but I need to know more now.

Your input greatly appreciated.

N

Originally Posted by Wyllys

I'd heartily recommend devoting your time to playing the tunes and saving all the analysis for later...years later. Play the music, not the theory.

I finally agree with you on something.

[Mr. Jelly]

Years ago I made up an excel spreadsheet with the key chords on the left and the corresponding chords of the key as in I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, etc. With this tool I could easily do a song in a different key with out much work. Over time I have come to be able to do it on the fly without this tool. This is also is helpful if you are trying to write a song.