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Old 08-01-2009, 08:14 PM
TokyoNeko TokyoNeko is offline
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Default Buying "Sight Unseen" (and Questions for Luthiers)

The conclusion I came to from my recent tryouts of some high-end OMs and my recent trade of a custom box for a carbon-fiber one is that buying guitars sight unseen is not a really good idea. Whereas I really lucked out with my Larrivee purchase from the East Coast in that it has the voice and the volume that I'm still happy with, I had to eventually turn over a very good custom instrument because I realized that it didn't have the tone I crave. Fortunately, I found a suitable substitute for the custom that didn't create a huge dent on my checkbook, but through the years of education in which many guitars were bought, sold and given away, I think I finally came to my senses in that there's no substitute for trying out the guitar before committing to a purchase. And I suspect that the only time I would purchase a guitar from a distance (either from a dealer or through a private seller) would be for a model that: a) I have played before, b) has a strong reputation for consistency, and c) is not currently available within driving distances.

So going back to the custom guitar that I traded away, I have to admit to myself that I could've been more specific on the exact tone I wanted during the build process (with the full acknowledgment that the hindsight is always 20/20). I enjoyed interacting with the luthier, and I learned quite a lot about guitars from him, so I wouldn't call the process a waste at all. But while the box had plenty of volume and bold projection (which I did make clear that I want), I knew deep down that I wanted the guitar to be a bit brighter instead of warmer. And I tried to convince myself through the following months that I would eventually be fully satisfied with the tone as the guitar broken in, but it wasn't to be. Finally, when I went through the aforementioned tryouts of some great OMs, I became more honest with myself regarding exactly what kind of voice I want in a guitar. So after agonizing over it for a bit, I traded away the custom, and hopefully someone else will fall in love with its tone soon.

This whole experience has obviously affected my view on custom guitars. I'm more apprehensive now about commiting to one, as in most cases you don't get to play it before you make the purchase. I know most luthiers grant return policies of up to 2-3 days, to give the customer the opportunity to be fully satisfied before keeping the box for good. But personally, I'd be very hesitant to return it (unless the tone is totally off for some reason), knowing that the luthier will have spent huge amounts of resources to make that box. And that potential agony is making it unlikely that I would go for another custom in the near future.

So here are some questions for the AGF sponsors for curiosity's sake (and the questions pretty much relate to the tone of the guitars only, not really to the fit/finish/appearance/etc.):

1) How do you personally feel about guitars being returned to you, after you spent huge amounts of time and energy, when you feel that you have done your best to meet the customer's requests?

2) What steps do you take to ensure that the customer gets the tone that he/she wants for that box? (You don't need to give away any trade secrets, obviously, but just some hints as to how you achieve it would be sufficient.)

3) Do you see yourself as being totally flexible for voicing the guitar according to the requests, or do you have your "signature" voice that you tend to stick to with minimal tweakings? Or is it somewhere in between?

Thanks in advance for the answers.
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Last edited by TokyoNeko; 08-01-2009 at 09:05 PM. Reason: Pressed "Enter" on accident before post was completed
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Old 08-01-2009, 08:31 PM
66strummer 66strummer is offline
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??????

Are we supposed to fill in the blanks or did your words get lost somewhere in cyberspace?
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Old 08-01-2009, 09:06 PM
TokyoNeko TokyoNeko is offline
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Originally Posted by 66strummer View Post
??????

Are we supposed to fill in the blanks or did your words get lost somewhere in cyberspace?
Stupid typo... I pressed the "Enter" button way before I was ready to send. As you can see, my full post is up now...

Mods, please fix the title of the thread. The editing on my end does not change the title on the thread list. Thanks.
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Last edited by TokyoNeko; 08-01-2009 at 11:59 PM.
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Old 08-01-2009, 10:02 PM
Martin_Nut Martin_Nut is offline
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Tokyo,

I did not begin with a custom build, but rather spent a lot of time and money acquiring and flipping guitars to learn what it was I really thought I needed. A more serious musician would no doubt have spent more time auditioning in showrooms or at guitar shows. I unfortunately make a living in a field other than music and don't have that kind of time and flexibility. So I substituted time snatched in front of a computer and a few bucks to experiment. Most of my experiments were used ones that have been sold for about what I paid - shipping and Ebay fees notwithstanding!

I now have a few guitars I am real happy with, all used customs I acquired on the basis of research and advice of other owners. No regrets there. Will I keep em all forever - who knows?

I do have one custom I commissioned on it's way sometime late this month. Fine builder, great size and wood combination for me - and I'm sure it'll be a good one, but we'll see. Tough call sometimes. Lots of variables. If I was a few years younger I'd probably spend more time doing hands-on investigation in showrooms, but as it turns out I have enjoyed owning and experimenting with a lot of guitars over the years. Seems to have worked out OK.

Best of Luck
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Old 08-02-2009, 12:38 AM
Howard Klepper Howard Klepper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TokyoNeko View Post

1) How do you personally feel about guitars being returned to you, after you spent huge amounts of time and energy, when you feel that you have done your best to meet the customer's requests?

2) What steps do you take to ensure that the customer gets the tone that he/she wants for that box? (You don't need to give away any trade secrets, obviously, but just some hints as to how you achieve it would be sufficient.)

3) Do you see yourself as being totally flexible for voicing the guitar according to the requests, or do you have your "signature" voice that you tend to stick to with minimal tweakings? Or is it somewhere in between?

Thanks in advance for the answers.
1) It has never happened, but it is in my contract, and I didn't have to put it there.

2) The most important thing is to determine if I am the right guitar maker for the customer. The customer (I like to call them "clients") and I interview each other. If I don't think I'm going to please them, I send them elsewhere. Really.

3) I don't know of a luthier who is skilled enough at it to have good control over what the guitars sound like who does not have a tonal signature. Most tweak the sound within that range. Some have a wider range than others. I can go in different directions with the sound of a guitar, but I won't build a guitar that I don't expect to sound good to my ear. My name goes on it. I have to think it's going to be good according to my standards before I will build.
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Old 08-02-2009, 04:52 AM
Brackett Instruments Brackett Instruments is offline
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Howard pretty much summed it up.
1. I've never had a guitar returned, but I do have a return policy.

2. Figuring out what a prospective customer wants is the hardest part. Tone is hard to describe. Once we've decided that I understand what they're looking for I determine if I can build it.

3. I believe any good builder will know what he can deliver. I've sent prospective customers elsewhere because what they wanted wasn't what I do.
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Old 08-02-2009, 06:10 AM
PWoolson PWoolson is offline
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1) I, too, have never had a guitar returned. But I'll always offer that. But to answer your question of how I'd feel. Well, I'd be crushed. If I spent more than a month putting my heart, soul, etc. into it and couldn't make the client happy, I'd feel I had failed. Not to mention that I just lost 1/12 of my annual income.
2)Like Howard said, there's usually a VERY lengthy interview process. Lots of back and forth. If I don't feel 100% comfortable in what the client is asking for, I have them tell me what factory guitars "do it" for them, then I go and play those guitars to get an idea of what they need. This hasn't happened but if it came time to build and I wasn't 100% sure what they wanted at that point, I'd either postpone their build until I was, or I'd tell them I wasn't comfortable with this build and return their money.
3)My guitars definitely have their own tone. But that can be tweaked to meet the client's needs. I too have turned people away that want, "it to sound exactly like a pre war martin", etc. Not because I feel I couldn't do that . But because I wouldn't want to. If you want a Martin, buy one. Or at least go to one of the builders who specialized in copying that sound.
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Old 08-02-2009, 07:25 AM
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Tim McKnight Tim McKnight is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TokyoNeko View Post
The conclusion I came to from my [URL="http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159002"]

1) How do you personally feel about guitars being returned to you, after you spent huge amounts of time and energy, when you feel that you have done your best to meet the customer's requests?

2) What steps do you take to ensure that the customer gets the tone that he/she wants for that box? (You don't need to give away any trade secrets, obviously, but just some hints as to how you achieve it would be sufficient.)

3) Do you see yourself as being totally flexible for voicing the guitar according to the requests, or do you have your "signature" voice that you tend to stick to with minimal tweakings? Or is it somewhere in between?

Thanks in advance for the answers.
1) "I have had one guitar returned because it was broken in transit so we promptly refunded 100% of the client's money (including shipping costs). I was unable to build him another guitar in the very short amount of time that he stipulated and he was simply not willing to wait two more months."

2)"A very lengthy written interview with a follow up telephone interview. We also prefer to meet with the customer to do a face to face and to watch them play. If this isn't practical then we ask for some video recordings of them playing."

3) - "Each one of our guitars are totally and individually unique sounding, each one is voiced for the individual player (with the exception of spec guitars that we may build for guitar shows). We don't have a signature sound such as Martin, Taylor, Gibson, etc... because we don't build to an engineered production model."

I believe our customers come to us with the reasonable expectation that we can indeed build a guitar voiced uniquely for them, to meet their tonal desires as well as respond to its fullest potential for their particular playing style and string attack. If I can't achieve that then I better hang up my chisels.
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