Newbie Question/s: How 2 start recording? (Acoustic Fingerstyle)

[whynautguitar]

Hello! I've been lurking the forums for a few days now and I figured I might as well just ask straight up for any advice for my situation. So I've been looking for a good microphone (my budget is around $180 to $200) to record acoustic fingerstyle with (my playstyle is mostly derived from Sungha Jung/Tommy Emmanuel but I've been trying to learn/record percussive fingerstyle to branch out). I already have an audio interface to start with (M Audio M Track Duo) and I'm currently using a Boya BM-1 Lavelier mic to record (placing it just below the soundhole). Though one big issue I'm seeing (from the threads I've scoured) is that my room is untreated and I have a lot of background noise because of the fact that I live in a dorm. I'm curious if with my budget I can see a difference in sound quality

Aside from this, I would like to ask for advice on mixing? What's a good process/workflow and what kind of plugins work best for this type of playing? My workflow at the moment is as follows:

1. Initial compressor to fix uneven sounds
2. Pass of EQ
3. Applying effects (Reverb/Delay/Etc.)

What kind of effects is/are recommended to help make a good recording sound better? And are there any general rules of thumb in applying EQ/Compression?


I apologize for the somewhat unorganized questions, and I hope and appreciate any advice regarding this. Thank you!

[KevWind]

First welcome to the Record forum
Second and first piece advice is go into your User CP window and go to Signature and list your system (see my sig line below, where it says "System"))
List basic computer brand model and OS version. List any DAW and version
That will make for much more efficient answers to any recording questions you may have in the future

That said in general :::often times the better the mic the more sensitive it is likely to be, to outside noise
Now the one caveat to that is that your Lav mic is omni directional which means it is picking up sound from 360 degrees ,, where a mic with a more directional polar pattern, like Cardioid is (again in general) going to pic up more what it is pointed at and not so much in 360.
However if being in a dorm means constant if intermittent noise you could possibly be better off using some kind of pic-up direct int the M Audio just a thought

[whynautguitar]

Done, thank you for the notice!

My dorm is relatively quiet around night-time (and in the dead hours of the night) so I tend to record from those times. We also have a "conference room" where we can record stuff but it's untreated and sometimes sound from the outside can be heard.

I remember trying to direct-input my guitar to the audio interface and it wouldn't pick up any audio from the pick-up itself; just a constant buzzing. I have a Baton Rouge AR21/ACE and I've heard that for some models the pickup system also does not work when plugged in to an interface

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by whynautguitar

Done, thank you for the notice!

My dorm is relatively quiet around night-time (and in the dead hours of the night) so I tend to record from those times. We also have a "conference room" where we can record stuff but it's untreated and sometimes sound from the outside can be heard.

I remember trying to direct-input my guitar to the audio interface and it wouldn't pick up any audio from the pick-up itself; just a constant buzzing. I have a Baton Rouge AR21/ACE and I've heard that for some models the pickup system also does not work when plugged in to an interface

Humm that does not sound correct
The whole idea of a pickup system is to be able to go direct into a line or instrument input (and should not matter weather an amp or an interface )

If your pickup system has a pre-amp section it should work direct to interface But you need to be using a 1/4 in. connection part of the Combi XLR not the XLR connection into your interface

The constant buzzing is curious and is an indication of something wrong (now granted the mono line in on your interface is only 44 db of gain) but you should be getting a guitar sound signal even if a bit low in volume.

So I would guess with that buzzing
is::
#1 a bad cable
#2 a bad ground in the pickup system itself
#3 a bad 1/4 in connection on interface
#4 something wrong in the line in section of the interface

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by whynautguitar

Hello! I've been lurking the forums for a few days now and I figured I might as well just ask straight up for any advice for my situation. So I've been looking for a good microphone (my budget is around $180 to $200) to record acoustic fingerstyle with (my playstyle is mostly derived from Sungha Jung/Tommy Emmanuel but I've been trying to learn/record percussive fingerstyle to branch out). I already have an audio interface to start with (M Audio M Track Duo) and I'm currently using a Boya BM-1 Lavelier mic to record (placing it just below the soundhole). Though one big issue I'm seeing (from the threads I've scoured) is that my room is untreated and I have a lot of background noise because of the fact that I live in a dorm. I'm curious if with my budget I can see a difference in sound quality

Aside from this, I would like to ask for advice on mixing? What's a good process/workflow and what kind of plugins work best for this type of playing? My workflow at the moment is as follows:

1. Initial compressor to fix uneven sounds
2. Pass of EQ
3. Applying effects (Reverb/Delay/Etc.)

What kind of effects is/are recommended to help make a good recording sound better? And are there any general rules of thumb in applying EQ/Compression?


I apologize for the somewhat unorganized questions, and I hope and appreciate any advice regarding this. Thank you!

This is a complicated question, of course. The answer could be a book (or 10). I'd start by checking out what amounts to an entire course on recording in the sticky at the top of this forum. There are videos there on virtually any subject, and should go a long way toward getting you started.

Given your environment, the best approach is to close mic, and hope that's good enough. So the lav mic clipped on is a good thing to try. It may not give you the best sound, but it may be better than the alternatives, you'll just have to experiment.

"Mixing" an acoustic fingerstyle piece can be pretty straightforward. If it's recorded well, you may need nothing at all except to adjust levels. Most people want a bit of reverb. Compression is more about increasing the overall level without clipping, and usually is done very lightly, if at all, on fingerstyle guitar, because its really easy to hear compression on an acoustic. But it's a matter of taste and style. I don't want to hear a compressor "pumping", but the CandyRat school of fingerstyle guitar, for example is usually very compressed, and I guess that pumping sound is part of the style. So if you're playing percussively, you may have more to deal with here, especially with a mic literally clipped on the guitar. A carefully adjusted limiter may tame the percussive spikes without being too audible on the guitar itself.

Other effects are totally a matter of taste. Most traditional fingerstyle recordings usually try to convey the natural sound of the guitar, so there are very few effects. For example, you don't hear any effects beyond reverb on most Tommy Emmanuel recordings. But of course the sky's the limit, if you're trying for a processed sound. There are players who treat the acoustic more like an electric and apply lots of effects, even distortion and overdrive. Someone sent me an example of a guitar track they liked the other day, asking if I could get a "natural" sound like that - and checking it out, it was obvious that there was some sort of synthesized effect going in, possibly a shimmer reverb, possibly an actually keyboard pad underneath. It was anything but natural, but it sounded nice. So whatever you like in that regard.

My workflow is:

• Record several takes until I think I have at least one that's played well. I always record in stereo, mono is virtually unheard of for fingerstyle solo guitar.
  
• Edit any mistakes if needed
  
• Make sure the stereo balance is correct (I try to do this when setting up mics, but it may need a small tweak)
  
• EQ to taste, if needed. I may also apply a few plugins. I usually use an LA-2 compressor set to almost zero compression - that plugin just tends to fatten things up. Sometimes I use the Soothe2 plugin to soften harsh edges.
  
• Add reverb
  
• Run thru my master bus setup, which includes some light limiting, and possibly a saturation plugin to add some warmth. I end with a LUFS meter and adjust the levels so that I'm hitting my target (around -14)
  
• Done, pretty simple, really. The real work is in capturing the sound well to start with (and playing something worth recording!)

Here's a complete run thru a simple recording/mixing process that I did a few years back. For this demo, I recorded to an external recorder, then imported into a DAW, but it'd be the same, just simpler, if I'd recorded into the DAW in the first place. This is an example of the many videos that are in the sticky at the top of this forum.



BTW, you might be a good candidate for recording to a portable recorder instead of your computer. With a portable recorder, you can easily take it somewhere with better acoustics or less noise. Maybe your school's band room or a music practice room? Or maybe there's a classroom or meeting space that you could go to that has decent acoustics.

Also, check your school's music program, as well - many schools these days have nice recording setups. Taking a intro to recording class might give you access to all kinds of things from a room with good acoustics to high end mics.

[jim1960]

The stickied thread in this subforum has tons of info to get you started, including an entire section called "A Comprehensive Beginner's Guide."

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by whynautguitar

Hello! I've been lurking the forums for a few days now and I figured I might as well just ask straight up for any advice for my situation. So I've been looking for a good microphone (my budget is around $180 to $200) to record acoustic fingerstyle with (my playstyle is mostly derived from Sungha Jung/Tommy Emmanuel but I've been trying to learn/record percussive fingerstyle to branch out). I already have an audio interface to start with (M Audio M Track Duo) and I'm currently using a Boya BM-1 Lavelier mic to record (placing it just below the soundhole). Though one big issue I'm seeing (from the threads I've scoured) is that my room is untreated and I have a lot of background noise because of the fact that I live in a dorm. I'm curious if with my budget I can see a difference in sound quality

Aside from this, I would like to ask for advice on mixing? What's a good process/workflow and what kind of plugins work best for this type of playing? My workflow at the moment is as follows:

1. Initial compressor to fix uneven sounds
2. Pass of EQ
3. Applying effects (Reverb/Delay/Etc.)

What kind of effects is/are recommended to help make a good recording sound better? And are there any general rules of thumb in applying EQ/Compression?


I apologize for the somewhat unorganized questions, and I hope and appreciate any advice regarding this. Thank you!

We've got a current topic going on the new Zoom R4 portable HERE.

Combine with a simple pair of small diaphragm condenser mics (as used HERE) and a good stand and you'll be able to record anywhere you like. A simple kit like that would take you a LONG way toward learning what you want to know.

[whynautguitar]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

BTW, you might be a good candidate for recording to a portable recorder instead of your computer. With a portable recorder, you can easily take it somewhere with better acoustics or less noise. Maybe your school's band room or a music practice room? Or maybe there's a classroom or meeting space that you could go to that has decent acoustics.

Also, check your school's music program, as well - many schools these days have nice recording setups. Taking a intro to recording class might give you access to all kinds of things from a room with good acoustics to high end mics.

Thank you! I'm surprised that I was actually on the right track on my mixing workflow, though one limitation I see with my current set-up is how I can have a more "stereo" sound if I can only record in mono.

Noted on the portable recorder, but would that be a redundant purchase as I already have an interface? Aside from that does that imply that I have to buy a microphone in conjunction with the portable recorder?

Sadly my university does not have good recording spaces, while they have practice rooms the hourly rates are exorbitant for my small weekly budget so I don't think its a feasible option

[whynautguitar]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

Combine with a simple pair of small diaphragm condenser mics (as used HERE) and a good stand and you'll be able to record anywhere you like. A simple kit like that would take you a LONG way toward learning what you want to know.

These sound really good! What microphones did you specifically use? I'm at a toss-up between getting a dynamic microphone (Shure SM57) or a condenser but I've heard that me being in a dorm means that a condenser isn't the best choice for recording in a noisy environment.

[whynautguitar]

Originally Posted by jim1960

The stickied thread in this subforum has tons of info to get you started, including an entire section called "A Comprehensive Beginner's Guide."

This post was very helpful, thank you! It's helped me narrow down my choices to buy either a good dynamic or a good condenser though I'm not sure if condensers would help given I live in a dormitory. Aside from that, I don't think I can afford a stereo set-up so I don't really know what's the best way to go about buying a microphone/s with my budget (~$180 - $200)

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by whynautguitar

Thank you! I'm surprised that I was actually on the right track on my mixing workflow, though one limitation I see with my current set-up is how I can have a more "stereo" sound if I can only record in mono.

There are ways to fake stereo, but they don't usually sound anywhere near as good as real stereo. If you want to sound like the records you're listening to, you'll want 2 mics.

Noted on the portable recorder, but would that be a redundant purchase as I already have an interface? Aside from that does that imply that I have to buy a microphone in conjunction with the portable recorder?

Some redundancy, I guess, but it may make things easier. If you have a laptop and a small interface, that's fairly portable already, tho you add in cables, etc, and it's not nearly as handy as some small recorders. Look at something like the Zoom H4n, which has built-in mics. No cables, nothing to configure. Fits in your pocket or guitar case, turn it on, hit record, and you're on. Or if you have a smart phone, there are stereo mics that can plug into the phone, turning it into a portable recorder. Look at the Shure MV88. Depends on your budget and needs, but the convenience factor can be pretty cool, and could help you with your environmental issues.

Sadly my university does not have good recording spaces, while they have practice rooms the hourly rates are exorbitant for my small weekly budget so I don't think its a feasible option

I wouldn't assume there are no good spaces, sometimes you have to get creative. It depends on how bad your dorm setup is as far as both acoustics and noise. But a basement, a closet somewhere, a church nearby that you can have access to, the student union late at night when no one's there, an empty classroom - who knows? I'd certainly try just recording in your dorm room, but also keep an eye out for spaces, public or private that you might be able commandeer for a short time. The more portable and simple your recording setup, the easy that should be.

You can also just not try to record really good quality tracks yourself. Use your recording setup to record demos until you're happy with your performance, if not the sound. When you're ready, go into a real studio - many can be quite inexpensive for just an hour or so.

[whynautguitar]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

There are ways to fake stereo, but they don't usually sound anywhere near as good as real stereo. If you want to sound like the records you're listening to, you'll want 2 mics.

I'm curious if you can share these methods? Might try to experiment mixing with these methods just to see what can come out of it but of course will keep in mind that true stereo will probably be better

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Look at the Shure MV88. Depends on your budget and needs, but the convenience factor can be pretty cool, and could help you with your environmental issues.

Sadly, both are out of my budget ($180-200), do you have any recommendations for more budget options or any microphones (dynamic/condenser) that could be a good choice?

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I'd certainly try just recording in your dorm room, but also keep an eye out for spaces, public or private that you might be able commandeer for a short time. The more portable and simple your recording setup, the easy that should be.

My roommate is very accommodating when I record so it's not really a lost cause to record in my dorm room, although hallway noise can be heard but I guess that's something out of my control

Originally Posted by Doug Young

You can also just not try to record really good quality tracks yourself. Use your recording setup to record demos until you're happy with your performance, if not the sound. When you're ready, go into a real studio - many can be quite inexpensive for just an hour or so.

This is a really good process to go about it! But I don't know if studios are still within my budget as the recording costs are more than double than rehearsal costs (and it doesn't even include mixing! My broke college student wallet weeps)

I'm genuinely surprised that this forum is very responsive, since I don't really dip my toes into asking on a public forum all that often.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by whynautguitar

These sound really good! What microphones did you specifically use? I'm at a toss-up between getting a dynamic microphone (Shure SM57) or a condenser but I've heard that me being in a dorm means that a condenser isn't the best choice for recording in a noisy environment.

I wouldn't use a 57. They can sound good, but if you're looking toward an intimate and detailed sound a dynamic in that price range is not going to provide that.

The video that I posted uses an inexpensive pair of Behringer C-2 small diaphragm condenser mics. There are other similar low budget SDC mics to choose from, too.

Cardiod pattern small condensers will work well for you if you exercise good placement practices. Doug's demo videos are great places to learn that.

If you opt for a small portable recorder you'll find most have stereo mics built in. I have had a couple of the small portables and presently own and use a Tascam DR-05, although the mics in that particular recorder are omni capsules that will pick up more background noise than the recorders that have cardiod pattern capsules.

Don't overlook the convenience factor of the portable recorder. Setting up a stand or 2, attaching cabling, and being tethered to a larger interface/computer setup means you'll spend more time fussing with equipment than actually recording.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by whynautguitar

I'm curious if you can share these methods? Might try to experiment mixing with these methods just to see what can come out of it but of course will keep in mind that true stereo will probably be better

There are quite a few "stereoizer" plugins, but those will likely cost money. You can try using busses or copying the track to make two, pan them hard left and right, and then apply different effects to each track. A little delay on one side, or EQ each side, but in opposite ways - boost some frequency on one side, cut it on the other. Probably not worth the effort, tho.

Sadly, both are out of my budget ($180-200), do you have any recommendations for more budget options or any microphones (dynamic/condenser) that could be a good choice?

On a tight budget, consider used. I see Zoom H4n's on reverb for under $100. I posted a demo a week or so ago using a cheap pair of condensers that go for around $35 used. Etc.

This is a really good process to go about it! But I don't know if studios are still within my budget as the recording costs are more than double than rehearsal costs (and it doesn't even include mixing! My broke college student wallet weeps).

I'd expect there are inexpensive studios in any college town - maybe even just another college student who has a bigger budget than you. The first time I used a pro studio to record solo fingerstyle, I went to a really nice studio. $35/hour. I was prepared and just went in and played. The whole process, playing 3 songs and mixing them afterwards took 2 hours, $70. For that, I got to use multi-thousand $ mics, an acoustically tuned room and an engineer who knew what he was doing.

But honestly, if your budget is constrained, you might be better off saving your money for food and school books. Use what you have, and focus on learning about the process. When I first started, I recorded lots of stuff to a Radio Shack cassette recorder. The sound was surely terrible, but I undoubtedly learned a lot about playing while the red light's on, and improved my playing, compositions and so on.

You have enough to learn at least a bit about recording, if not to actually make a great sound, so I'd focus on that. Going thru all the tutorials at the top of this forum is more than a college course's worth of material, and it's all free.

[dnf777]

You've gotten some of the best advice possible from some accomplished pros, and very experienced amateurs. Let be provide the perspective of someone who can't play guitar well, can't sing, and knows very little about quality recording.

While fancy (ie, expensive) gear is fun, it likely won't make any difference to beginning attempts at recording in a dorm room. Even if you won the PowerBall and bought a Telefunken U47, all it would do is let you listen to your recordings and be able to tell exactly when your upstairs neighbor walked to the restroom, and exactly what he did while there.

Something portable might be a really good option, as Rudy mentioned. And keep in mind, most new digital recorders allow mixing, effects, and mastering all in one.....and you can always import the tracks into a DAW later if you choose to. Many now also can serve as an interface as well.

The new Zoom R4 checks all those boxes, and allows you to use external mics if you upgrade at some point. For a tight budget, its built in condenser is more than adequate. (or you can add a matched pair of SDCs for $70 if you must)

One other consideration is a pair of headphones for recording. If you go with a portable recorder, headphones are almost a must. And again, you can spend anywhere between $20 and $5000, with about $50 getting a decent pair for basic recording.