Anyone tried a Coles 4038?

[deejayen]

I'm not really ready to buy a mic just yet. I'm currently reading and listening to reviews, and changing my mind a few times every day!

I don't have much experience of different mics, so I'm finding it hard to hone in on one particular type of mic, polar pattern, and mic'ing technique etc.

I was hoping to be able to book a session in a recording studio which has loads of great mics in order to to try out a few things, but the owner is in a band which tours, and it seems he's rarely around. I've been waiting months to try and get something organised.

I've always been curious about the 4038, but I seem to remember hearing a demo years ago which sounded like the mic was really muffled, as though it were covered in a few thick socks. I've since heard it on a couple of acoustic instruments (mainly violin) and thought it tamed some of the unpleasant higher frequencies. I'm wondering if it might help coax a woody tone out of my guitar and lessen any pick scrapes etc. I'd also be interested in its use on male (slightly thin baritone\tenor) vocals.

[DupleMeter]

The Coles is a dark mic, and requires A LOT of gain. I wouldn't recommend it unless you have a really good preamp (potentially one with a 300 Ohm load setting, though that's not entirely necessary...it does open the top end a little).

[min7b5]

There's a studio here in town I use every once in a while, and it has a very impressive mic collection - 1956 u47, Klaus modded 87 pair, 84s, M 49 come to mind. It's a beautiful room too. Anyway, he reaches for 4038's quite a bit for seemingly everything. Here's my pay Chuck singing a tune there into pair of 4038's: https://youtu.be/7r4WCKteH4k?si=y18Vkt9LV6JYS6Ie

[deejayen]

Originally Posted by min7b5

There's a studio here in town I use every once in a while, and it has a very impressive mic collection - 1956 u47, Klaus modded 87 pair, 84s, M 49 come to mind. It's a beautiful room too. Anyway, he reaches for 4038's quite a bit for seemingly everything. Here's my pay Chuck singing a tune there into pair of 4038's: https://youtu.be/7r4WCKteH4k?si=y18Vkt9LV6JYS6Ie

Thanks, Eric. I think that sounds great! From what I can see there's a pair of 4038's, angled so that the vocal mic rejects some of the guitar, and vice versa.

I also watched another video of Chuck playing 'Wolves of Lamar Valley' where a 4038 is on the guitar, and something like a U87 on his voice. That sounds great, too, with more reverb.

I suppose the only thing would be if I wanted a stereo guitar. If I bought a pair of 4038's I could record guitar and vocals separately. I'm not sure how you'd record stereo with a pair of the 4038's.

One other setup I'm considering is a Schoeps MK4 and MK8 combination with the Schoeps AMS-22 bracket for mid-side recording.

As I said, I'm not ready to buy yet, as I'm looking at getting acoustic treatment into my room first.

By the way, do you know what the sunburst guitar Chuck is playing on "Shiny Red Car" is? Is it a Martin CEO-7 or something more Gibson-flavoured?

[deejayen]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

The Coles is a dark mic, and requires A LOT of gain. I wouldn't recommend it unless you have a really good preamp (potentially one with a 300 Ohm load setting, though that's not entirely necessary...it does open the top end a little).

Thanks, Steve. I have a DAV BG-1 preamp. I'm not sure if that has enough gain. Perhaps I could use some sort of signal boost (like a CloudLifter) if not.

[min7b5]

Originally Posted by deejayen

. I'm considering is a Schoeps MK4 and MK8

I have those mics and caps and it's a very solid M/S rig for sure. I've used it a bit for solo guitar, though I tend to always drift back to preferring a spaced pair. However I of like the idea of one day trying an MK8 or similar stealthy figure eight mic tucked under an otherwise single mic approach to recording a singer/guitarist for sort of time-aligned room stereo room mic effect. Just a thought. In the end, if a singer/guitarist get get solid takes and is nicely self-balanced, I still greatly prefer the sound of a single mic to get both. Like Caitlin Canty here https://youtu.be/zKd4HYZI2Zs?si=7IozY9hi0uA870Qr who I just saw a few weeks ago in a small club where just she just completely stunned the room with her performance.. But I digress as usual

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by deejayen

Thanks, Steve. I have a DAV BG-1 preamp. I'm not sure if that has enough gain. Perhaps I could use some sort of signal boost (like a CloudLifter) if not.

The DAV BG-1 isn't quite up tot the task, I'm afraid. You'll need something capable of 65-70dB of clean gain. The DAV tops out at 59dB.

The Cloudlifter does change the tonality of the mic a little, but it's always an option, if you don;t mind that.

[Doug Young]

I'd love to try the 4038 (preferably a pair). I had the Townsend L22 modeling mics for a while, and my favorite model on those was the 4038. I can only assume the real thing sounds better. I've heard that the 4038 is similar to some of the AEA ribbons, and I really like my R88. There seem to be very few stereo examples of the 4038 out there, tho here's one:

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I'd love to try the 4038 (preferably a pair). I had the Townsend L22 modeling mics for a while, and my favorite model on those was the 4038. I can only assume the real thing sounds better. I've heard that the 4038 is similar to some of the AEA ribbons, and I really like my R88. There seem to be very few stereo examples of the 4038 out there, tho here's one:

Having used both I will say this: The R88 (and R84) is more open sounding with less proximity boost. The Coles is darker with a lot more proximity boost. I've often found the Coles not as well suited for more detailed sources (like fingerpicked guitar). The R88/84, because of their extended top, have a feeling of depth/dimension that the Coles lacks.

[deejayen]

Thanks very much for all the helpful information and the links etc.

I watched the Caitlin Canty video, and thought it was fabulous. I'd love an old guitar like that. I'm not sure if the reverb was added later, or if that was the room.

I may very well end up going the single mic route. It would certainly be the easiest way to get started. I was thinking again about the dual Coles configuration, and although it's not that complicated, I would be setting up, testing, and recording on my own, and with the two beefy stands and two mics, that's quite a lot to fiddle with and get right. In a recording studio I'd just have to play and sing while and engineer moved the mics and maybe another engineer monitored the sound\blend.

Thanks also for the specs on the DAV. I suppose that's why the AEA preamps are often used with ribbon mics.

[kellyb]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

Having used both I will say this: The R88 (and R84) is more open sounding with less proximity boost. The Coles is darker with a lot more proximity boost. I've often found the Coles not as well suited for more detailed sources (like fingerpicked guitar). The R88/84, because of their extended top, have a feeling of depth/dimension that the Coles lacks.

My experience as well. I'll also second what DupleMeter said about having a preamp with a 300ohm impedance (or at least something close)...like the good ole 1073 in fact! Ribbon mics can vary more than subtly in sound at different impedances.

In the last few years, I've gone through a bunch of mics to finally put together a collection for home recording drums, (a lot of) acoustic guitar, elec guitar, and vocals...U47 clones (Flea, Wunder), AEA R44, R84, R88A, U87ai, and 4038's. I've got some audio technica 4051's, too, but while they're great, they're not general purpose, and I'd guess that's what you're after, or at least something that can record vocals? If you're only recording acoustic guitar, your wallet is lucky! :-)

The 4038's might be favorite mics of all time. They take EQ very well, and if you're recording guitars and vocals, you have to eq them pretty extremely. I could say the same about drums, too...I typically have to pull out at least a little on overheads, but it's painless. Your impression of lows and muffled is absolutely correct, but when you wipe that away, what's left is usually stunning. It also just sounds immediately classic in a way that's hard to describe. What a 4038 does to rack and floor toms is also a thing of true beauty! Ride cymbals, too.

The R44 is more neutral (and huge) sounding to me. The R84 I'd describe the same way, just a little smaller sounding (but by no means small sounding at all). The R84 is also one of my all time favorite mics. In fact, if I could only have one mic to record, it'd probably be the R84 or R44.

The N8 or R88 (a stereo N8) is the most elegant sounding mic of the bunch IMO. Kind of a masterpiece in its own right. It's a little more even sounding to me than the R44/R84. For the ribbon version of "natural" representation of what you're hearing in the room, I'd pick the N8 or R88 every time.

Anyway, I've gone through phases where I was so charmed by the 4038 that I thought they could be my only mics, but in time, there were things I missed about singing into condenser mics, and I was glad to have an LDC mic again. There's just extra sensitivity and fast detail inherent to those designs that I don't get from any ribbon, even paring the ribbons with AEA pres (the RPQ type, with the high pass filter and high freq shelving eq) to open them up. I'm not saying that Ribbons aren't detailed and that they can't sound bright enough...don't get me wrong...I LOVE singing into both the R44 and the 4038, just different things and I can't passably manipulate or mix either one to sound like the other.

You're very smart to want to book a few hours to hear mics side by side. Any option will sound good when it's previewed on its own, but you'll know your preference when you go back and forth on them. Also, in the price range of Coles, I'd be careful trusting anything in YouTube videos...whether it's the singer, the video codec, etc....it isn't the same at all; you definitely don't get any sense of the different sizes of of the sounds of different mics that way, and that can make a serious impression from mic to mic.

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by kellyb

In the last few years, I've gone through a bunch of mics to finally put together a collection for home recording drums, (a lot of) acoustic guitar, elec guitar, and vocals...U47 clones (Flea, Wunder), AEA R44, R84, R88A, U87ai, and 4038's.

The R44 is more neutral (and huge) sounding to me. The R84 I'd describe the same way, just a little smaller sounding (but by no means small sounding at all). The R84 is also one of my all time favorite mics. In fact, if I could only have one mic to record, it'd probably be the R84 or R44.

The N8 or R88 (a stereo N8) is the most elegant sounding mic of the bunch IMO. Kind of a masterpiece in its own right. It's much more even sounding than the R44/R84. For the ribbon version of "natural" representation of what you're hearing in the room, I'd pick the N8/R88 every time.

Anyway, I've gone through phases where I was so charmed by the 4038 that I thought they could be my only mics, but in time, there were things I missed about singing into condenser mics, and I was glad to have an LDC mic again. There's just extra sensitivity and fast detail inherent to those designs that I haven't gotten from any ribbon, even with something like AEA pres (the RPQ type, with the high pass filter and high freq shelving eq) that can really open them up. I'm not saying that Ribbons aren't detailed and that they can't sound bright enough...don't get wrong...I LOVE singing into both the R44 and the 4038, but it's very much it's own thing.

Some great info you have shared on ribbons kellyb.

I have been extremely impressed with Doug Young's R88 recordings on acoustic Guitar. As you said " most elegant sounding". Unfortunately in the tests I have listened to, comparing the R88 to the R88A, the non active R88 suits the character traits I like better in a ribbon(In LDC condenser mics I often like transformers better). N8's are active with transformer(even though they do not put an A after the N8) and also have a smaller transducer. The 84 as well has a slightly smaller transducer, and Pop shielding which rolls off some of the top end. But the Magnet size and length is the same as the 88.

Other than one being stereo and the other mono, What would you say are the sonic differences between the R84 & the R88?

Frequency response chart shows them relatively similar.

[kellyb]

Originally Posted by AcousticDreams

Other than one being stereo and the other mono, What would you say are the sonic differences between the R84 & the R88? Frequency response chart shows them relatively similar.

FWIW, I've tried using frequency charts to reference mics' sounds for comparison, and it's rarely been practical beyond a very general approximation. Mics seem to have a particular character that I either like or dislike, response charts be ****ed! :-)

Re: R88 and R84, the R88 just sounds more accurate to me, probably. The R84 has a large natural bloom in the lows and I don't think I could EQ it to sound quite as balanced as the R88. The R88 is kind of "picture perfect" whereas the the R84 is a little bit larger than life sounding. If was recording only guitar, my preference would go to a single mono lobe of the R88, and for vocals, I'd prefer the R84, if that makes sense.

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by kellyb

FWIW, I've tried using frequency charts to reference mics' sounds for comparison, and it's rarely been practical beyond a very general approximation. Mics seem to have a particular character that I either like or dislike, response charts be ****ed! :-)

Re: R88 and R84, the R88 just sounds more accurate to me, probably. The R84 has a large natural bloom in the lows and I don't think I could EQ it to sound quite as balanced as the R88. The R88 is kind of "picture perfect" whereas the the R84 is a little bit larger than life sounding. If was recording only guitar, my preference would go to a single mono lobe of the R88, and for vocals, I'd prefer the R84, if that makes sense.

Yes that does make good sense. The 84 for that enhanced low end bigger than life sound, that we love for voice. And if you are totally happy with your guitar sound( which I am)...the 88. I already get a lot of low end, don't want more. I sure wished they made a single 88 version, non active with all they same stuff.

Hmmm? I wonder if AEA would make a custom N8 non active with the same components as the 88. Alas, I know better from being a product maker in the past. The worst words you can hear from a client is " All you got to do is ". The client, does not realize that even a small change can takes hours and hours to accomplish. And it is not just exchanging the components..you would probably have to redesign the housing slightly so that it does not alter the frequency response.

[kellyb]

Originally Posted by AcousticDreams

I sure wished they made a single 88 version, non active with all they same stuff.

Hmmm? I wonder if AEA would make a custom N8 non active with the same components as the 88. Alas, I know better from being a product maker in the past. The worst words you can hear from a client is " All you got to do is ". The client, does not realize that even a small change can takes hour...

RE: passive N8, I think agree at this point. I had the R88a but borrowed a passive R88 a bunch kind of around the same time, and the passive version seemed to have better headroom and might have been a touch smoother. There was nothing wrong with the active version, and the differences were pretty subtle to my ear, but it seemed real.

Re: custom, haha! Yeah, sounds like a Six Sigma catastrophe. :-)