The Guitar that nearly converted me from Rosewood to Mahogany

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by Bowie

No, not even close. When all other things are equal, it's definitely impactful. But, switching brands absolutely dwarfs the % contribution the back wood makes. [...] Shopping for back woods is a mistake. The are the last choice that should be made after the builder, body size, model, top.

Well, of course, (I thought) that goes without saying, and the experience relayed above is based on that.

How do you sell a player another guitar without making them feel like they're taking a risk? Offer them the same guitar with a different back wood.

Just like how you sell people another car. Different trim, different trinkets (and in the US at some point even a different brand name on essentially the same car)

[sinistral]

Originally Posted by AcousticDreams

I visited Larry at Organic Sounds Select Guitars yesterday.

Had absolutely no intention of looking at another guitar. Larry was showing me his new Midea dehumidifier when he pointed to a Custom Shop Martin D14. The guitar Immediately caught my attention with its beautiful Macassar Ebony headstock overlay. Pristine mahogany back and sides. With a profound nod he noted that this was an exceptional guitar.

So I made a huge mistake and gave it a strum. Instantly I was totally captivated. Could not stop playing that guitar for the next hour. Believe me when I say, that last thing I want to do right now is buy another guitar. But I was taken by surprise by how incredibly smooth, big & open sounding this guitar is. And I am a rosewood man....so this Mahogany back and sides guitar shocked me at its stunning tone.

Larry generously let me keep playing it while he worked on shop business with his laptop. This Martin Mahogany has the same lushness that I love about Rosewoods...but of course with a more fundamental nature. For the first time I finally understood the word that so many have used before...."Growl". Smooth, full, but big and bold.

One of the things I really love about Larry, is that he is all about what is best for each of us. No sales pressure. While this guitar is Truly Astounding...he helped me understand that for my particular style of playing, Rosewood Back and sides suits me best. And that is really quite something as Larry himself is a Mahogany back and sides man. Yet he was smart enough to realize that what is ultimately best for one person, may not be best for another.

Boy, but what a nice guitar! When I got home I looked up that guitar...and he also made a nice video on it. Never have I been so temped. Check it out.

https://organicsoundsguitars.com/col...-mahogany-2020

That is a beautiful guitar, and it sounds great. I have three dreadnoughts with rosewood backs and sides, and six dreadnoughts with mahogany backs and sides, so I suppose one could say I have a mahogany bias. Three of the mahogany dreadnoughts are Martins (Standard Series D-18, D-18 Modern Deluxe and D-18 Authentic 1937) and three are other makes (Collings D1A and two Pre-War Guitars Co. Model Ds). It’s interesting the range of chime, reverb and overtones that each of them has. The PWGC guitars are the “driest” of the six. From your description and the demo, the Authentic seems very similar to the guitar at Organic Sounds, and sounds closer to a D-28.

Originally Posted by BlueBowman

Come on over to the hog-side, AD! We're always welcoming former rosewood players

On a slightly more serious note, the density of the back (per Michael Greenfield) has some impact on whether the guitar is more rosewood or more mahogany sounding. And the density of each individual set can vary greatly, so it's very possible to end top with a denser set of mahogany (more akin to the rosewoods), as I understand it. (And if I have that wrong, someone please feel free to correct me.) Could be what drew you in to that lovely Martin. Or maybe you're just developing an ear for mahogany, which is by far one of my faves.

And I hear you on not needing to buy another guitar. My leash is taut at the moment!

I think this makes a lot of sense. Guitars that I have played with sinker mahogany backs and sides sound very reminiscent of rosewood. The other characteristic that Michael Greenfield and other luthiers look for is damping. Mahogany is much more variable than rosewood, and I suspect that mahogany sets with lower damping will share more characteristics with rosewood than a more typical set of mahogany.

[oldrocker]

Originally Posted by LAPlayer

This is why I strongly advocate leaving all the preconceptions and concern over all the minutiae in the car when playing guitars. Don't worry (or even think about) woods, nuts, bracing, scale, glue ...... just play. When you find one that's great - buy it. THEN go home (if you must) and measure, calculate, inquire, notate.... everything you want to know about your most-recent favorite guitar. If people would do this routinely it might decrease their need to continuously sell newly-acquired instruments that only work on paper but in practice. One of my favorite guitars, a D45, would never satisfy me on paper. However, in hand it's a majestic creation that fits my every need.

I 100% agree. Guitars are individually different and are sensory experiences that can't be adequately described with words.

[martingitdave]

Woah! That's a hoss for a boss!

[Organic Sounds Select Guitars]

Big THANK YOU to AcousticDreams for this thread! He's a terrifically nice gentleman and a fantastic guitarist/musician. He really made that custom Martin sound huge and wonderful.

Regarding the general direction that the thread has taken, I also encourage players to keep an open mind when trying guitars. Sometimes a guitar just resonates with you as a player (pun intended!), and it might have different tone woods than you expect. Mahogany vs rosewood vs walnut/maple/leopardwood, etc, etc... Sometimes instruments inspire you in ways that you would never expect.

I have my hands on hundreds of guitars, and can't tell you how often I have been surprised and inspired. It can really be magical when that happens, and you might find yourself playing in a way that you haven't previously, opening new creative pathways for your music. Keep an open mind!!

[GoPappy]

Originally Posted by FingahPickah

. . .

While just poking around a shop (not looking for another guitar), I played a 2022 (Sitka/Mahogany) Martin D18 (1935 Sunburst) and was immediately struck by the thunderbolt.

Balance, projection, volume; beautifully voiced.

I'm convinced that the D18 is the most versatile guitar ever made. And, in my experience, pretty much every one I've ever played has sounded good. Some have been particularly spectacular, but I've never found a dud.

I've moved on to smaller bodied guitars as dreads just feel too big for me now. But if I was a younger man and wanted a single guitar to do it all and be a lifetime guitar, the D18 would be my choice.

[RoyBoy]

Larry is a great guy to work with for sure, he sold me my Vintage D.

I think there's some magic cooking in that guitar. The GE bracing and 1/4" tone bars play a role. The thin top also plays a role in the full sound of that tone (the adi top on my CS D-18 is 0.125"). It sounds much older than it is. My concern would be (same as all of the reimagined Martins with the lighter build) the need for a neck reset sooner than later.

As I listen to the real old vintage Martins, I hear less difference between the mahogany and rosewood guitars. The mahoganies sound fuller and richer and the rosewoods are clearer and less muddy. Might be just me. I could never afford one of those instruments so I just have one each of the newer ones.

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by Organic Sounds Select Guitars

I also encourage players to keep an open mind when trying guitars. Sometimes a guitar just resonates with you as a player (pun intended!), and it might have different tone woods than you expect. Mahogany vs rosewood vs walnut/maple/leopardwood, etc, etc... Sometimes instruments inspire you in ways that you would never expect.

I have my hands on hundreds of guitars, and can't tell you how often I have been surprised and inspired. It can really be magical when that happens, and you might find yourself playing in a way that you haven't previously, opening new creative pathways for your music. Keep an open mind!!

Yes, yes. Always keep a open mind. You never know where a guitar with unique /powerful tone will take you creative wise. And in some cases, it might let your skills as a player breathe easier.

I found myself moving across the fretboard effortlessly. I think this was due to the perfect string spacing & the perfect string height/action.(not every guitar nut is totally spaced correctly). Even though the neck was slightly thicker than I am use to, my fingers were flying from top to bottom without any mis-steps. So now I have an even more open mind about neck thickness & shape as well.

If we were to measure the difference scientifically( between harmonics, dynamics, frequency range) between the guitars that we label as great, versus guitars that are very good ...we would probably find but a very small notable difference. But this is true in most every category on earth. The differences between great and good are small. But sometimes that little bit of difference will make....ALL the Difference in your playing ability and your objectives. I certainly know this has been true for me. A better sounding guitar, a better playing guitar, will give you the edge for inspiration which may reflect in your playing/creating abilities.

Many times I have read these words on AGF, " I did not buy that guitar, and it still haunts me today " ha ha...I finally know what this means. I am just not in the position financially today to make such a purchase. And most likely I will kick myself later for not taking the lunge. This guitar gives that Iconic D-18 sound that we have heard on so many of those Classic Seventies records.

[Neil K Walk]

I felt the same way when I was kicking the tires on a HD-35 but only had the money for a D-16GT burning a hole in my pocket. It was all in the bracing for me; I loved scalloped bracing. I could see how this spoke to you. It’s got an Adi top and has the 28 style neck with the diamond volute. I also envy that they left the mahogany natural and didn’t use a hideous aging toner on it.

[rollypolly]

Interesting topic. I think I prefer hog to rosewood. I may even prefer other woods like maple, birch and cherry to rosewood. To each his own!

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by RJVB

True, but isn't the saying that they account for up to 20% or even 25% of the "final tone" (in solid wood guitars)? Even 15% would be enough to take the sound of the rest to a next level, or on the contrary, make that it just doesn't work out for you...

Yes true...BUT...what member Bowie is pointing out is that so many people, including companies and people who make the guitars, and dealers/stores/private sellers who market them, DEFINE almost the totality of the tone of the guitar to the back and side wood...NOT the top wood, builder, body style/size/shape and bracing/voicing...as Bowie believes, as do I...or even just 15% to 25/30% of the tonal voice. No, they basically ascribe the vast majority of the tone to the back and side wood...especially with Brazilian Rosewood or "The Tree" Mahogany, and just basically ignore any other component, most especially the top wood.


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[RJVB]

As I already said, my remark was in the context of all other things being equal.

And to play devil's advocate for those companies & makers: from what I've see they also do that, usually with very (ahem) telling numbering schemes to indicate the B&S wood. I'm pretty certain their assumption is that people look for a particular shape first and then whether they want that one in this or that wood.

I also have the impression that many brands only give you a choice between some form of mahogany and rosewood, and I wonder if that doesn't play a part in dividing the world up in 2 main kinds of guitars.

[Bowie]

Originally Posted by Organic Sounds Select Guitars

Big THANK YOU to AcousticDreams for this thread! He's a terrifically nice gentleman and a fantastic guitarist/musician. He really made that custom Martin sound huge and wonderful.

Regarding the general direction that the thread has taken, I also encourage players to keep an open mind when trying guitars. Sometimes a guitar just resonates with you as a player (pun intended!), and it might have different tone woods than you expect. Mahogany vs rosewood vs walnut/maple/leopardwood, etc, etc... Sometimes instruments inspire you in ways that you would never expect.

I have my hands on hundreds of guitars, and can't tell you how often I have been surprised and inspired. It can really be magical when that happens, and you might find yourself playing in a way that you haven't previously, opening new creative pathways for your music. Keep an open mind!!

I really appreciate your videos. I largely dismiss YouTube vids as being helpful because they rarely give a person any perspective on how the guitar actually sounds relative to other instruments. But, you've taken the time to put together some wonderfully helpful comparisons. Big respect for that.

[Organic Sounds Select Guitars]

Originally Posted by Bowie

I really appreciate your videos. I largely dismiss YouTube vids as being helpful because they rarely give a person any perspective on how the guitar actually sounds relative to other instruments. But, you've taken the time to put together some wonderfully helpful comparisons. Big respect for that.

Thanks so much! Very nice of you to say that.

[raysachs]

I’m sure it varies guitar to guitar, but I have both rosewood and mahogany backed guitars and they sure sound different to me. For my first 25 years playing, my only acoustic was a 1968 D28 that I bought well used in about 1979 after a year plus with a horrible pawnshop no name acoustic. I played about half a dozen guitars and that D28 sounded and felt overwhelmingly better than anything else I played, so I plunked my $400 down and took it home. It was a wonderful guitar and I never thought about buying another acoustic.

After a long layoff (life got in the way) when I was pretty sure I’d quit playing for good, I sold that D28, then surprised myself about seven plus years ago and started playing a lot again. I like smaller guitars now and initially, after playing several more guitars, found myself waaay more drawn to mahogany B&S guitars. After about four and a half years, I wanted to give rosewood another chance and since then I’ve had one of each (CEO-7 and 000-28 CAA). They sound very different, play very similarly and I love having them both. But I almost always like the mahogany where the rosewood is more of a mood based thing. If I’m in the mood for it, I love the 000-28, but sometimes it’s just too bright and jangly for me and I need the more fundamental sound of the CEO7. If I had to own just one, it would be the CEO7, but I’m happy to have both.

Our ears change over time and so do our tastes. But I’ve always been able to hear a difference between rosewood and mahogany, at least within the Martin world. I’ve played a few Gibsons and Guilds over the years that were mahogany and sure sounded more like my Martin mahogany than rosewood…

-Ray