Buzzing after lowering saddle and straighten the neck

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by Theleman

Freatboard seems good. As I said, when pressed at 12th and last frets, the gap between the string and fret is almost thin sheet of paper.

The neck seems slight bowed in, but not more than other playing well guitars.

The top is not bulged up either, but action is still high even the saddle lowered to very near to bridge itself, the point where it started buzzing at 6th string.

Another saddle could be last resort, but will try shimming first, which I tried in the past to my Stratocaster's nut to raise 0.1mm for the 1st string buzz at the time. It worked.

Depress the string at the 14th fret, and see how much gap there is around the 6th-7th frets. Then depress at the 7th, and last fret (19th, 20th). See what the topography is of the frets in that area.

[Theleman]

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza

Depress the string at the 14th fret, and see how much gap there is around the 6th-7th frets. Then depress at the 7th, and last fret (19th, 20th). See what the topography is of the frets in that area.

The gap on both frettings are very very narrow - about thickness of a credit card.

So the neck and fretboard seems OK. I look at the guitar again, and the neck is, compared to more recent guitars coming out of Chinese factories, this Harmony's neck is attached lower angle - fretboard is sitting lower, so the strings are further away from it. And also the bridge height is very high too - hence also contributing to high action on higher frets. I mean the lower frets has a good playable action. It is the higher frets from 12th sitting at about 3.5 - 4mm, and that is from the saddle ground to almost bridge level.

BTW, I have shimmed the saddle on the 6th string part. Just used a tiny piece of scrap paper, and folded it, and put it under the saddle. It raised the saddle by about 1mm at 6th string part, and WOW the buzz has gone.

It plays crystal clear and sounds very nice. This is a Harmony Sovereign from early 1970s, so has well aged looks. The tone is just like from the old Gibson J45 or J200 - sweet ringing sound.

Far from what people say about them, Harmony guitars are not bad at all. But it is getting rarer to come by, the good ones. When it is set up right, it could be a poor man's Gibson or Martin

[Mr Fingers]

John Arnold's observations warrant attention. Otherwise, I think your whole approach here is wrong and potentially dangerous for your guitar. There are several -- not a huge number, but several -- factors that combine to yield a guitar's action. Because they are all interdependent -- changing one affects the others -- they need to be checked and addressed in order. Doing otherwise -- filing a fret you think is high, or adjusting the truss rod to fix something that actually has another cause, etc -- is what incompetents do, and which yields the messed up guitars we encounter all over the place. There are great set-up resources on the web (I always start with fret/com and Frank Ford, but there are others) and you should either take the time to get things squared away in your head, or turn the work over to someone else. I promise you that the key is never, ever a particular height at a particular fret, or a quarter-turn on a truss rod, etc. It's all connected.

[Theleman]

All I have done is putting a new saddle to the guitar, because it never had one before.

But because the saddle was new and wouldn't fit into the bridge, I had to sand it thin, and also sanded it to lower the height to help lower the action, which it did.

But because I wanted even lower action, I tried to turn truss rod clockwise, but never actually did - or maybe I turned it to about 1/12th turn to the right.

And because the saddle was sanded flat from top to bottom, it created buzz at 6th string, which was cured by raising the saddle at 6th string part by 1mm using paper shim.

Action is still highish at higher frets, but I could live with it. The neck is straight and the fingerboard is good, and it is playing beautifully. I am happy with that.

I am not going to drive 2 hours to nearest luthier with the guitar with problems like this, when I could come to the forums, discuss the problem with other members, get some ideas, think about it, and work it out by myself.

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by Theleman

The gap on both frettings are very very narrow - about thickness of a credit card.

So the neck and fretboard seems OK. I look at the guitar again, and the neck is, compared to more recent guitars coming out of Chinese factories, this Harmony's neck is attached lower angle - fretboard is sitting lower, so the strings are further away from it. And also the bridge height is very high too - hence also contributing to high action on higher frets. I mean the lower frets has a good playable action. It is the higher frets from 12th sitting at about 3.5 - 4mm, and that is from the saddle ground to almost bridge level.

BTW, I have shimmed the saddle on the 6th string part. Just used a tiny piece of scrap paper, and folded it, and put it under the saddle. It raised the saddle by about 1mm at 6th string part, and WOW the buzz has gone.

It plays crystal clear and sounds very nice. This is a Harmony Sovereign from early 1970s, so has well aged looks. The tone is just like from the old Gibson J45 or J200 - sweet ringing sound.

Far from what people say about them, Harmony guitars are not bad at all. But it is getting rarer to come by, the good ones. When it is set up right, it could be a poor man's Gibson or Martin

Good that you got it playing; not always easy to get some of these guitars to play optimally but that's the "charm" of it, like living in an old Victorian or driving a Model T.

It's likely not that the neck was attached lower, but the whole neck block/upper bout had rotated slightly making the neck appear lower in relation to the bridge (which normally raises up slightly due to string tension.) Of course it's all about point of view.

The last I checked a credit card is about .032"-.035" - that's almost a full millimeter. From the 7th fret to fretboard end that's a bow of about 1-1/4 to 1-1/2 degrees or so. When you add that to any neck block rotation, however slight, and top doming/bellying, you have a recipe for high action, and the reason for the buzz is you likely have higher action at the 12th fret than you do at the top frets. That's a bowed neck.

[Theleman]

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza

Good that you got it playing; not always easy to get some of these guitars to play optimally but that's the "charm" of it, like living in an old Victorian or driving a Model T.

It's likely not that the neck was attached lower, but the whole neck block/upper bout had rotated slightly making the neck appear lower in relation to the bridge (which normally raises up slightly due to string tension.) Of course it's all about point of view.

The last I checked a credit card is about .032"-.035" - that's almost a full millimeter. From the 7th fret to fretboard end that's a bow of about 1-1/4 to 1-1/2 degrees or so. When you add that to any neck block rotation, however slight, and top doming/bellying, you have a recipe for high action, and the reason for the buzz is you likely have higher action at the 12th fret than you do at the top frets. That's a bowed neck.

Good analysis. Thanks.

Funny that when I tried fretting my new Epiphone EJ200 Artist, which has lowest action throughout fretboard, and perfect setup in every way from the box, it has same gap as the Harmony. But I don't feel that neck is bowed.

The Harmony's neck also doesn't seem bowed. Maybe it is, but very difficult to tell by just looking at it.

But I can see the point where strings start from the nut, and they are going up high by the saddle on the bridge. I feel the bridge is far too high.
If the bridge could be sanded down by about 5mm, and then highten the saddle by a 2-2.5 mm, it would be perfect action. Or just sand down the bridge by about 2mm, that would be simpler.

I think the neck needs some relief or bow so strings can vibrate when played, otherwise guitar will buzz when played.

It's the bridge which needs to be lowered, but sanding the bridge will make the guitar unoriginal, and possibly not nice cosmetically, which will reduce its sale value. But to make it a perfect players guitar, I feel that's what it needs.

But I don't feel its necessary to do that on the Harmony, because mostly I am playing the lower frets, and it is playing fine.

[TNO]

Check out Frets.com and Bryan Kimsey's site for info on setup. No doubt you can get it playing better but you need a methodology and accurate measurements to get there.